Are they all eager to die also? Of course not
I thought that it was understood that if they (the more radicalised that is) die in service to their religion they get 72 virgins in the after life… That’s why you have suicide bombers and such. Is that not right?
Late,
grmpysmrf
[reply]
[reply]So you think everyone is a product of their environment? Do you really think Gacy and Dahmer coud’ve been rehabilitated? from what I understand of Dahmer he was never abused or anything of the like he just liked doing fucked up shit.
Late,
grmpysmrf
there are people who are so twisted up by things that they can never be ‘smoothed out’ ever again. that is very true, but throwing them into a cage with other and different offenders and treating them as less than human is in NO WAY a solid solution. its barbaric, and more so, its counterproductive.
[/reply]
If some people are twisted up by things that will never smooth out wouldn’t the most humane thing be to put these people down, rather than let them live a tortured existence where they are in constant turmoil or worse yet where they could hurt someone else?
If these people are so tortured beyond repair what is therapy gonna do for them? other than make someone else feel productive? seriously.
I’m obviously talking theoretically here because I know there are tons of avenues for this idea/system to be abused. Political enemies would be squashed by those in charge etc. etc.
Also, if these people are doing these things haven’t they already forfeited their humanity? What does it matter how they’re kept in a cage? they’ve already demonstrated they lack of humanity.
Late,
grmpysmrf
[reply] Are they all eager to die also? Of course not
I thought that it was understood that if they die in service to their religion they get 72 virgins in the after life… That’s why you have suicide bombers and such. Is that not right?
Late,
grmpysmrf[/reply]
Understood? By whom? Bill O’Reilly? Jeff Dunham?
Seriously, Grumps, I’m no expert on Islam or the Koran, but I’ve yet to find this supposed scriptural promise as such and the Muslims I know and work and associate with have yet to acknowledge this either. I’m not saying no one has ever taught it (maybe they have as all religions have their kooks) I’m just saying that YOU are the one whose understanding and knowledge of the subject is being used to determine truth on the matter so I’d just like to know where your supposed authority on the topic stems from.
If you can show otherwise, great, but you have not demonstrated an actual knowledge of Islam OR the Koran and as such none of it applies to this particular suspect who may or may not subscribe to such wash anyway.
Being a product of your environment doesn’t necessarily mean that you do the things that Dahmer did because they were done to you. It’s just the environment in which you grew up in and the things you’d experienced in it have influence over what you do and why you do it. They don’t even necessarily have to be extremely negative in intent. Things can slowly warp one’s mind.
I understand all of that, but I was going off of his statement that he thinks people are inherently good. If this were true it would stand to reason that we wouldn’t be so easily corrupted. Inherently good suggests that we more often choose the right option and corruptibility would mostly be an oddity…
Kind of leads me to an idea I used to kick around in college, That there is no such thing as evil, just lesser degrees of good. For example Dahmer liked killing, raping and eating people (and not necessarily in that order.) outward thought would suggest that’s evil, but it’s good for Dahmer. There is some good for somebody.
So if that’s what hacksaw means I suppose I understand, but I think it’s a pretty simplistic way to look at right and wrong.
And I do think to a certain degree that people are a product of their environment. I also think that people have legitimate mental health issues. I don’t see these as excuses but as two of the many reasons or possibilities for why people like Dahmer do what they do. I also don’t believe it should prevent them from being punished.
I completely agree.
As far as them being rehabilitated I don’t know if it’s possible to “rehabilitate” people like that. I’d brought up “3 Guys 1 Hammer” in another thread not too long ago, which was done by the “Dnepropetrovsk maniacs” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs. I don’t see how these people could be rehabilitated and I certainly do not believe they should ever be allowed to be a part of society ever again.
What environment created these dudes and how come there aren’t more of these kids from that environment? I find it hard to believe their environment had anything to do with their actions. It’s got to be mental and it’s apparently contagious cause you see all the time how there is always a dominant in these types of cases.
Not everything or everyone can be fixed. The prison system in the U.S. is certainly a disaster and needs some major fixing but some people are sociopaths who are so far off into their own universe where society’s morals are completely foreign to them to the point that there’s no coming back.
I agree but that doesn’t jive with hacksaw’s no such thing as born bad theory.
Late,
grmpysmrf
[reply][reply] Are they all eager to die also? Of course not
I thought that it was understood that if they die in service to their religion they get 72 virgins in the after life… That’s why you have suicide bombers and such. Is that not right?
Late,
grmpysmrf[/reply]
Understood? By whom? Bill O’Reilly? Jeff Dunham?
Seriously, Grumps, I’m no expert on Islam or the Koran, but I’ve yet to find this supposed scriptural promise as such and the Muslims I know and work and associate with have yet to acknowledge this either. I’m not saying no one has ever taught it (maybe they have as all religions have their kooks) I’m just saying that YOU are the one whose understanding and knowledge of the subject is being used to determine truth on the matter so I’d just like to know where your supposed authority on the topic stems from.
If you can show otherwise, great, but you have not demonstrated an actual knowledge of Islam OR the Koran and as such none of it applies to this particular suspect who may or may not subscribe to such wash anyway.[/reply]
I don’t know any muslims and I don’t watch Fox news if I can help it. I didn’t think I was coming off as an authority on the situation. I’ve just heard and read from various news stations and news sites for years now that this was the case. Shit, if I’m wrong I withdraw it. wasn’t trying to piss anyone off (this time).
Late,
grmpysmrf
It’s all good. But that’s what I was referring to by stereotype. So many people think they know all about Muslims and such, but a lot of what they THINK they know as fact or common knowledge is merely ethnocentric lampooning and fear-mongering spread by other knuckleheads.
I have heard the “72 Virgins” bit before too. I’ve just never heard it from a Muslim or seen it in any Muslim texts. So I’m naturally a bit skeptical.
Steering off the path a bit, does anyone else kind of not like the term “radicalized”. It sounds like some nerdy kid suddenly got taken under the wing of some super-bro or badass uncle or something and got turned into Mr. Awesome von Super Stud. " 'Sup, Bitches? Notice anything different about me? Yeah, that’s 'cause I got radicalized! Now get me a Monster Energy Drink because I’m gonna go bodysurfing and punch a shark in the face! YEEEEEAAHHHHHHAAAAA!!! I’m radical, Bitches!!!"
It’s all good. But that’s what I was referring to by stereotype. So many people think they know all about Muslims and such, but a lot of what they THINK they know as fact or common knowledge is merely ethnocentric lampooning and fear-mongering spread by other knuckleheads.
Admittedly I get all of my muslim info off the TEEVEE but that’s really only because I don’t care for religion and I don’t really care if what the TEEVEE says is true or not cause all of their foundations are built in bullshit anyway. So, having 72 virgins after dying is just as believable as some woman being made out of some guy’s rib. yea it seems unreasonable, but doesn’t it all?
I have heard the “72 Virgins” bit before too. I’ve just never heard it from a Muslim or seen it in any Muslim texts. So I’m naturally a bit skeptical.
I would think the people that believe this interpretation wouldn’t waste their time talking to you because they would be too fundamentalist
Steering off the path a bit, does anyone else kind of not like the term “radicalized”. It sounds like some nerdy kid suddenly got taken under the wing of some super-bro or badass uncle or something and got turned into Mr. Awesome von Super Stud. " 'Sup, Bitches? Notice anything different about me? Yeah, that’s 'cause I got radicalized! Now get me a Monster Energy Drink because I’m gonna go bodysurfing and punch a shark in the face! YEEEEEAAHHHHHHAAAAA!!! I’m radical, Bitches!!!"
Nice.
Late,
grmpysmrf
Steering off the path a bit, does anyone else kind of not like the term “radicalized”.
Yes. Freed Radicals = unpaired electrons.
I’m pretty sure that suicide is forbidden in Islam, and 72 Virgins is most likely a translation error of the ancient text/graphics.
[reply]As far as them being rehabilitated I don’t know if it’s possible to “rehabilitate” people like that. I’d brought up “3 Guys 1 Hammer” in another thread not too long ago, which was done by the “Dnepropetrovsk maniacs” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs. I don’t see how these people could be rehabilitated and I certainly do not believe they should ever be allowed to be a part of society ever again.
What environment created these dudes and how come there aren’t more of these kids from that environment? I find it hard to believe their environment had anything to do with their actions. It’s got to be mental and it’s apparently contagious cause you see all the time how there is always a dominant in these types of cases.[/reply]
I also pointed out that mental health issues were an obvious part of the problem with many of these kinds of cases. “Environment” isn’t limited to neighborhood, town, city, state, or country.
It could be the way they were brought up. I’m not making excuses for these scumbags. I honestly cannot wrap my head around what they did and the complete lack of remorse or any form of empathy is disgusting. I don’t know if I really want to know what makes someone like that tick but I do think it would be beneficial to find out - for someone to find out. Perhaps in hopes to prevent it from happening.
Surprisingly these three assholes really solidified my belief that the death penalty is immoral and ultimately pointless and hypocritical.
[reply]Steering off the path a bit, does anyone else kind of not like the term “radicalized”.
Yes. Freed Radicals = unpaired electrons.
I’m pretty sure that suicide is forbidden in Islam, and 72 Virgins is most likely a translation error of the ancient text/graphics.[/reply]
Suicide is forbidden in most religions unless you’re dying in the name of your chosen god/religion. Then it’s not suicide. It’s martyrdom.
As far as “72 virgins”, it’s constantly debated and all due to different translations. Sadly, even if they were rewarded with 72 virgins, it still wouldn’t be the most ridiculous promise made in a religious text. Not even close.
I also pointed out that mental health issues were an obvious part of the problem with many of these kinds of cases. “Environment” isn’t limited to neighborhood, town, city, state, or country.
calm down stinky, I was agreeing with you that it can’t be all environment.
Surprisingly these three assholes really solidified my belief that the death penalty is immoral and ultimately pointless and hypocritical.
odd, it did the exact opposite for me. We need the death penalty in certain cases. it’s not hypocritical because when the state sentences someone to death it’s not for thrill seeking.
Late,
grmpysmrf
A suicide bomber is not a martyr.
They did not go through extreme suffering or torment until their death at the hands of others because of their religious beliefs.
They were not burned at the stake nor were they placed in a gas chamber.
A suicide bomber is not a martyr.
They did not go through extreme suffering or torment until their death at the hands of others because of their religious beliefs.
They were not burned at the stake nor were they placed in a gas chamber.
I’m sure they’ve been shown differently, which is why they engage in it.
Now that I hold my doctorate in religious studies thanks to wikipedia, I shall share some of my knowledge…
Synonyms [for suicide bomber] include… martyrdom operation, and predatory martyrdom.
Also
Islamist militant organisations (including Al-Qaeda, Hamas and Islamic Jihad) argue that suicide operations are justified according to Islamic law, despite Islam’s strict prohibition of suicide and murder.[66][67]
because
Justifications have been given by conservative Iranian Shi’ah cleric Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah Yazdi, "When protecting Islam and the Muslim community depends on martyrdom operations, it not only is allowed, but even is an obligation as many of the Shi’ah great scholars and Maraje’, including Ayatullah Safi Golpayegani and Ayatullah Fazel Lankarani, have clearly announced in their fatwas.
there was nothing about 72 virgins although this tidbit was in there
Militant Muslim groups that carry out suicide attacks say that they believe their actions fulfill the obligation of jihad against the “oppressor” and that they will be rewarded with paradise
Late,
grmpysmrf
Predatory Martyrdom.
I think this is my new favorite word.
It is just so friggin’ silly. I can’t even wrap my head around it.
Predatory Martyrdom.
I think this is my new favorite word.
It is just so friggin’ silly. I can’t even wrap my head around it.
Sounds like an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
Late,
grmpysmrf
[reply]Predatory Martyrdom.
I think this is my new favorite word.
It is just so friggin’ silly. I can’t even wrap my head around it.
Sounds like an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
Late,
grmpysmrf[/reply]
I know, exactly. It doesn’t seem like something that even belongs in this dimension of reality. It’s like staring at one of those retarded MC Escher paintings with the impossible up-down staircases and people walking on the ceiling or sitting at 3 legged tables that can’t exist. It just makes you dizzy and kind of sick.
A suicide bomber is not a martyr.
They did not go through extreme suffering or torment until their death at the hands of others because of their religious beliefs.
They were not burned at the stake nor were they placed in a gas chamber.
Yes, it is. Just because you say something “is” or “isn’t” doesn’t make it so. Maybe you should do even the slightest bit of research before making such definitive statements while refuting what I’ve said?
Thankfully (or surprisingly?) Grumpy has provided you with some info that shows that they do believe that suicide bombing is one of the many ways in which on can become a martyr. Oh, and that they belive that they are rewarded for this.
Steering off the path a bit, does anyone else kind of not like the term “radicalized”. It sounds like some nerdy kid suddenly got taken under the wing of some super-bro or badass uncle or something and got turned into Mr. Awesome von Super Stud. " 'Sup, Bitches? Notice anything different about me? Yeah, that’s 'cause I got radicalized! Now get me a Monster Energy Drink because I’m gonna go bodysurfing and punch a shark in the face! YEEEEEAAHHHHHHAAAAA!!! I’m radical, Bitches!!!"
[reply]Steering off the path a bit, does anyone else kind of not like the term “radicalized”. It sounds like some nerdy kid suddenly got taken under the wing of some super-bro or badass uncle or something and got turned into Mr. Awesome von Super Stud. " 'Sup, Bitches? Notice anything different about me? Yeah, that’s 'cause I got radicalized! Now get me a Monster Energy Drink because I’m gonna go bodysurfing and punch a shark in the face! YEEEEEAAHHHHHHAAAAA!!! I’m radical, Bitches!!!"
[/reply]
Hahahahahaha!!! EXACTLY!!
I guess I wasn’t the only one.
Perfect…