Open Letter to Angie Jourgensen

Discussion
1

In light of these rumours (the latest one is that I lost all Piss Army data), I have sent this email to Angie, clearing up any confusion anyone would have had regarding this. Essentially since the end of 2007, I never had access to any data on any sites associated with her.

"Angie,

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding Piss Army and what happened to it. I want to explain things to you so as to stop this finger pointing at me once and for all and also clear up any confusion.

The only association the domain name pissarmy.com had to me was that it was registered under my name, and that ceased last week. Because a domain is registered under my name, this does not imply that I have access to the site’s data. Years ago, I think back in 2002/2003, I purchased the domain name and kept renewing and paying the registration fee. Regarding Piss Army, I set this up from scratch with the interface and database design and kept maintaining the site. During this time, I also paid for the hosting fees for Piss Army, as I was with the official Ministry site (ministrymusic.org) back then.

However, in late 2007, yourself and Brent Zius, asked me to move the Piss Army forum over to your server, since you no longer needed me to host it. On December 4th 2007, Brent confirmed to me in an email, which I still have, that the move went well and was completed. I took the time to reinstall Piss Army on your server and set up the database all over again. I remember this clearly as it took almost a whole day to do this. In other words, I handed over the contents, or data, of Piss Army to you so it can run on your server, which it did since December 2007. Since that point in time, I did not have access or control of the data on pissarmy.com since the site was now run by you. This email is posted at http://prongs.org/~afra/pissarmy_transfer.png .

I had absolutely nothing to do with pissarmy.com going down when it did two weeks ago. I do not have access to the servers or the files to put it down. Let me reiterate: pissarmy.com was not running on a server I had any association with. In fact, your other sites such as ministrymusic.org and thirteenthplanet.com also went down. Last week you asked me to register pissarmy.com under your name which I did within a couple hours of your request, though this still would not have anything to do with the actual site pissarmy.com - it just simply states that the domain is registered to you, not how the site is run and whether it is up or not.

Put simply, since the end of 2007, I never had access to any data associated with any of the Thirteenth Planet sites, which includes any of the Myspace sites, ministrymusic,org or Piss Army. The Myspace sites I created and maintained but the passwords were given over to you upon request, and subsequently changed on me, so if the sites are ever changed, I have nothing to do with this.

I maintain many sites for bands and even record labels, and always deal with them professionally. The way I deal with you is not an exception to this. If you have any questions or technical matters please ask me directly and I will be glad to explain anything. You called me only once since Piss Army went down, but as I was in a meeting at work, it went to voicemail. Since then, I have tried calling you several times regarding all this over the past week but you have not picked up and have not returned any of my calls. I would really rather you clear up any confusion with me directly.

Thank you,

Afra"

2

Very well said, and she should address this on MySpace ASAP because her followers are misinformed and are blindly slagging you off in the comments. If she’s upset at someone, it should be her own people. I just noticed the PA placeholder says their site was “hijacked by friendly fire”.

1002

3

Upon investigating, by running tools like WHOIS information (http://whois.domaintools.com/), the Piss Army forum was being hosted on http://www.server4you.com. The site is still running - just that pissarmy.com is no longer pointing to it since the domain registration took place. They are pointing it to the site that says “Due to circumstances beyond our control, The Piss Army…”. So they are directing it to the wrong site and not where it was hosted at.

4

How much uglier can the Ministry moniker possibly become?

5

Yeah this isn’t really how you treat people who have worked (for free) for you. I cannot ever imagine other musicians doing this - the people who have helped Tool, for example, are simply amazed at all this. Piss Army site went down, but why are they pointing their fingers at me, someone who hasn’t had anything to do with the site since 2007 - it’s very confusing.

6

but why are they pointing their fingers at me

Because my friend, everyone needs to point their finger and say “that’s the bad guy”.

Example…

7

So we’ll hate him. Because he can take it. Because he’s not our hero. He’s a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.

Seriously though what needs to be considered here is that your professionalism has been unjustly put into question by fallacious shite. Certainly do hope that there are no negative ramifications beyond the present hassle, but the truth (and the law) is on your side.

8

I can’t believe it’s come to this, sir. seems some lackey fucked up on their end and is pointing fingers at you. Your letter was well put and the pic of the email kinda puts it all into place. I don’t see litigation as a viable business model, she’s dooming herself and Al.

9

Good call, Afra.

Good call.

10

That’s how you write an email! Nice job… Even though it’s still probably your fault, and you use a teleprompter, and all of your fancy learning words… … … Yeah I look forward to litigation! [laugh]
Late,
grmpysmrf

11

I think it’s time Al and/or Angie had the balls to post here.

Seriously, she’s posted here before, and she’d be well aware of this. If they want to re-earn any respect back, they should get their arses into gear.

Btw, speaking of the tool site, Kabir Akhtar is a helluva nice chap [:)]

12

I think it’s time Al and/or Angie had the balls to post here.

They won’t even answer phone calls or return emails, so doubtful they will post here. I’ve been calling her to clear this all up over phone since last week and have called at least five times. Nothing back.

But her minions, who clearly lack to see the big picture, are told things to spread. It’s rather amusing, considering how they won’t take a second to think about things before spewing insulting accusations. I really wish people would think for themselves sometimes. Then, it would give me a bit more faith in the humans.

Here is an example:

From: Anonymous

Afra pulled the plug in pissarmy without letting Al and Angie know. They’re very sorry, but ALL data is lost. They’re busy working with someone else trying to start up a new fan club or something like that. That’s all I know. I can only guess why Afra didn’t come clean about it, maybe he thought it be more fun to keep you all guessing?

Personally, I feel better off without it, as though I’ve had some really good times and made brill friends, it seems many of you think we should put up with liars and bullies (or are bullies/liars) because you’re too crap to stand up for decency. Fuck that. Anymore of these messages drop in on my inbox will be deleted without reading. I’ve had it. I don’t put up with this shit anywhere else and I refuse to here.

Anyhow, I have detailed everything and have showed ample proof that the site was not in my control (she obviously knew this - she was paying the hosting fees for pissarmy.com). I really wish I could take back the time, effort and energy I spent working on things for her, for free, but then again, I have created many friendships that make it all worth it. This is no way you treat someone who has worked with you, especially for free.

13

[reply]I think it’s time Al and/or Angie had the balls to post here.

They won’t even answer phone calls or return emails, so doubtful they will post here. I’ve been calling her to clear this all up over phone since last week and have called at least five times. Nothing back.

But her minions, who clearly lack to see the big picture, are told things to spread. It’s rather amusing, considering how they won’t take a second to think about things before spewing things. I really wish people would think for themselves sometimes. Then, it would give me a bit more faith in the human race.

Here is an example (this person has shown me nothing but bigotry/racism against me and spreading of false rumors as this). “maybe he thought it be more fun to keep you all guessing?” - talk about plain ignorance. Anyhow…

From: Claire Walton

Afra pulled the plug in pissarmy without letting Al and Angie know. They’re very sorry, but ALL data is lost. They’re busy working with someone else trying to start up a new fan club or something like that. That’s all I know. I can only guess why Afra didn’t come clean about it, maybe he thought it be more fun to keep you all guessing?

Personally, I feel better off without it, as though I’ve had some really good times and made brill friends, it seems many of you think we should put up with liars and bullies (or are bullies/liars) because you’re too crap to stand up for decency. Fuck that. Anymore of these messages drop in on my inbox will be deleted without reading. I’ve had it. I don’t put up with this shit anywhere else and I refuse to here.[/reply]

She doesnt realize that this type of cyber-bullying is criminal does she? I am its one thing publicly say your being mean, here is why and why dont you be nice.
Its another to slander someone in the attempts for people to aggressively pursue negative abusive actions against someone.

I am not suggesting this in the slightest. But if by tommorrow alfa you happen to have claimed you have attempted suicide as a result of her slanderous attempts. Gone to a doc of course. You have a nice lawsuit on your hands. Especially due to her status.

Personally I hope that woman attempts to sue me. I admit it. I could use the promotion cus if you thought today was a 13th planet rucus i have a talent for raising the bar of insanity. [:P][laugh][:P][laugh]
I have the blabbermouth.com press releases ready to go too! [angelic]

14

God, Rabid, let it go. Afra, you’ve been as awesome as always. I doubt you need anything from me, but please do hit me up if you ever need ANYTHING. I still have our original emails and will show up in court with you if it comes to that. God forbid.

16

She doesnt realize that this type of cyber-bullying is criminal does she? I am its one thing publicly say your being mean, here is why and why dont you be nice.

Its another to slander someone in the attempts for people to aggressively pursue negative abusive actions against someone.

I am not suggesting this in the slightest. But if by tommorrow alfa you happen to have claimed you have attempted suicide as a result of her slanderous attempts. Gone to a doc of course. You have a nice lawsuit on your hands. Especially due to her status.

Personally I hope that woman attempts to sue me. I admit it. I could use the promotion cus if you thought today was a 13th planet rucus i have a talent for raising the bar of insanity.

I have the blabbermouth.com press releases ready to go too!

Are you on drugs?

Or just really, really retarded?

17

but please do hit me up if you ever need ANYTHING.

I’d love to get that Flashback cd that you promised to send me since I sent you that KY jelly REVCO cd. Think you could swing that?
Late,
grmpysmrf

18

[reply]She doesnt realize that this type of cyber-bullying is criminal does she? I am its one thing publicly say your being mean, here is why and why dont you be nice.

Its another to slander someone in the attempts for people to aggressively pursue negative abusive actions against someone.

I am not suggesting this in the slightest. But if by tommorrow alfa you happen to have claimed you have attempted suicide as a result of her slanderous attempts. Gone to a doc of course. You have a nice lawsuit on your hands. Especially due to her status.

Personally I hope that woman attempts to sue me. I admit it. I could use the promotion cus if you thought today was a 13th planet rucus i have a talent for raising the bar of insanity.

I have the blabbermouth.com press releases ready to go too!

Are you on drugs?

Or just really, really retarded?[/reply]

i am sick, on decongestives and really need to get some rest on my day off from work.

19

Damn, all this drama is too much. It’s kind of funny how petty the camp is acting and how pitiful it makes them look, but at the end of the day it’s just sad. It seems like just about anyone who ever had any involvement with Al or Angie has nothing but bad things to say and a taste of lingering bile in their mouths. And to go as far as to fuck over Afra, a guy who has been promoting you via the interweb for years, giving up sweat money and blood for free… man that just takes it to a whole new low… Even a guy like Afra who’s been on the sidelines of the camp can’t avoid the raging shit-storm of Al and Angie’s shady dealings!

I’ve heard of dry drunks, alcoholics who have quit drinking but still display the traits of an alcoholic, and perhaps Al and Angie are the junkie equivalent, acting out junkie-like behavior like lying, cheating, stealing and not taking responsibility for their own actions.

I am not a fan of gossip, and perhaps I shouldn’t speculate, but there is just to much evidence pointing to Al and Angie being total pricks to everyone around them to not throw in my two cents. Oh well, thanks for the music Al during the good years. Good luck on your retirement, may it come sooner than later.

20

At the end of the day, it’s just a big case of 13th Planet not running their operation the way it should have been run. They should have had this sort of thing covered so that it never happened. To blame others for their own sorry business management is lame.

I think they had problems at that label since day one, regardless of how it was run, even shit like printing errors and whatnot seemed to effect EVERY release. By the end they didn’t even recall shit, just called it a collectors edition

21

They won’t even answer phone calls or return emails, so doubtful they will post here. I’ve been calling her to clear this all up over phone since last week and have called at least five times. Nothing back.

This is what’s nuts. They’ve been leaving messages on Rabid’s phone, getting ‘minions’ to do their dirty work… and ignoring you. It’s like the little kid on losing ground saying to the older sibling ‘talk to the hand, talk to the haaaand’.

I really wish I could take back the time, effort and energy I spent working on things for her, for free, but then again, I have created many friendships that make it all worth it. This is no way you treat someone who has worked with you, especially for free.

Afra, ‘but then again’ is the part of that sentence I’d forcus on. Be philosophical about it, these things happen for a reason, and people do fucked up shit.

I was bitching on this forum (not implying yer bitching at all… but I certainly was) about the oh so terrible things people can do. And everyone here told their stories and it really put things in perspective. Out of all the things people could do to you, it ain’t so bad. If anything, I think someone like you will just look back on it and laugh not too far in the future. And from my own experience, I’m better for those things having happened.

These things, again, happen for a reason. And, a lot was gained for you out of it. I mean, just look at the communities it’s spawned. Lame as this will sound, I’ve met some pretty cool folks and even made good mates over this forum, as has virtually everyone else here.

At the end of the day, it’s just a big case of 13th Planet not running their operation the way it should have been run. They should have had this sort of thing covered so that it never happened. To blame others for their own sorry business management is lame.

I think they had problems at that label since day one, regardless of how it was run, even shit like printing errors and whatnot seemed to effect EVERY release. By the end they didn’t even recall shit, just called it a collectors edition

I think this is the outcome of too many fingers in different pies.
How can you write songs, record new albums, do remixes, be a tour manager, manage other artists, run a record label, do distribution and merchandise and be on top of the website full stop?
Something’s gotta give, and I think this is what’s happened. Not enough money, people don’t get paid, people get pissed off, fingers are pointed.