more details for The Last Sucker set for release 9-18-07

Tenohtwo ANd Peligro(Finally, something decent and coherent from peligro)
You guys make excellent points and I’m not saying I’m right and You’re wrong, I’m just suggesting a possible reason. As Far as Living in a cave and not knowing the plethora of web sites and articles and news casts, I agree, you would have to live in a cave but how many of the Younger Listeners in fact live in a cave? I lived in a cave when I was just starting Jr. High. I Knew of Desert storm didn’t really know any details didn’t really care to know any details. I think Al maybe is probably trying to appeal to those (New) listeners (he already knows the base is there) yeah it’s all out there but how many high schoolers, jr. High schoolers need a little extra boost to go find some shit out or to keep the channel on a “news” broadcast about the war?

Tenohtwo you wrote

Does 242’s “Funkhadafi” still make you want to bomb Libya today?

Were you young when you heard that song? and do you know a little bit more about the Libya situation because of that song? I will completely Concede that you probably don’t need 3 albums worth so I can only speculate he’s doing it for the new listeners. the new listeners that “In case you missed the last two albums”

Perhaps he’s trying to create a Dead Kennedys legacy. Even though those albums are completely dated with the name dropping, they are still relevant when it comes to the religous right, the conservative base, the supression of information, the big medicine Industry. Perhaps Al wants to be known for making a social impact. It’s easy for me to admit when I was just starting high school i was listening to the Dead Kennedys and by the time I was senior, DK had already inspired me enough to find out who the people/organizations DK sang about are/were and what they were all about (Phylis Schlafley, Jerry Falwel, Moral Majority, PMRC, Etc)

That’s all I got. I’ll definately agree they are not the best albums by ministry but they’re certainly not the worst.

It makes you think that Al really bought into the joke-y (and horribly untrue) comment from a journalist (which he’s repeated several times since) that Ministry only puts out good albums when there’s a Bush in office.
Now I wish that there would be one more album after TLS, just to see if there’s any life left in him once you take away his muse. I think Peligro’s right; it’s pretty disappointing that for three full years he’s had nothing to say except “Bush sucks.” And packing in it after TLS only proves that.

Is he really trying to raise awareness? Or is he just venting?[/quote]

It definately could just be venting! certainly give legitimacy to all of the potty words. all of the juvenile attacks on Barbara “Poor black people should be happy to live in the superdome” Bush.

Rock and roll is cool and all but it isn’t exactly the forum to express your political views.

John Lennon, Niel young, Simon and Garfunkel, Bob Dylan, The Who, Rage Against The Machine, Dead Kennedys, Rise Against, Bad Religion, Pennywise, MDC, Marilyn Manson, Ice Cube, Ice T, Disposable heros of hiphopcracy. Arrested Development. Too name a few.

Especially when you have crazy vampire teeth,weird arm pads, and you are screaming obscenities through a distortion box.

Not that i like all of these bands, but they have their audience and they all serve the same purpose even if they do have crazy vampire teeth and arme bands

[quote]Reminds me a bit of the bum on the corner where I work that plays his guitar and sings about how all of us are destroying things. Maybe so, but at least I have a hot meal when I want it and don’t stink like a funky dog.

Some people need the image of that crazy hobo cause everyone else is “controlled by the man” LOL that’s pretty funny though!
Late,
grmpysmrf

Well the stupid thing is that Ministry is even pushing the issue at this point. Bush will be powerless in a year or so with no chance of reelection. [/quote]

Unless some Catastrophic Terrorist attack comes around at the end of the term (even though were fighting them over there so they don’t come here sheesh utter nonsense) and we have to suspend elections so that we can deal with the catasrophy at hand. Remeber how rudy didn’t step down after 9/11 even though his ass was ran out of town on a rail at the ballot box?
what did he get 3 or 4 more extra months??

The Iraq is very near an end with more and more talks of pulling out every day.

doubtful new estimate say at LEAST 20 months shit with hundreds of americans dying a month that’s still a helluva lot of needless deaths. ANd Bushy boy wants to go another 2 months before we even talk about reduction in force so he’s asking for two more months so he can come up with some more BULLSHIT as to why we should stay

[quote]Even if this new album made anyone thing about things it is about 5 years too late. Is this supposed to be a “I told you so” album or something? I really just don’t see what it is supposed to accomplish. Hopefully the music will not be the same old same old.

I certainly have no argument there! what else can I say? Although if you start too early people label you as conspiracist. catch 22. anybody who didn’t support the patriot act when it was first introduced was labeled a terrosrist!! see my point?
Late,
grmpysmrf

Tenohtwo you wrote

Does 242’s “Funkhadafi” still make you want to bomb Libya today?

Were you young when you heard that song? and do you know a little bit more about the Libya situation because of that song?

Ok, not the greatest example to use, since the song is really nothing more than a sample-filled instrumental, and not so much a political statement. It just happened to be the first song to pop into my head as an example of a politically-themed song that seems irrelevant today. I doubt that song fired anyone up in '86, except some kid with a sampler. I was in high school during the attack on Libya, but knew of/about Gadhafi before hearing the 242 song.

Name-dropping in songs…arghh…is just a personal pet peeve of mine (Billy Joel could be poster child with “We Didn’t Start The Fire”). Pop culture references in lyrics just seem to cheapen the whole song (I’m sure there are a few exceptions). I’d rather hear lyrics that I can interpret/misinterpret for myself, than straight-up news about Haliburton, Bin Laden, Cheney, W…ugh. The music itself isn’t bad, I’m just sick to freaking death of George Bush, and it pains me to know that whenever I pop in one of Ministry’s last three albums from now on, I’ll be reminded of the douchebag. Sucks, because I still like the music for No W, Waiting, Rio Grande Blood, and a few others. I think the biggest disappointment is the mystery and sense of discovery that comes with a new Ministry album is gone. No more wondering if it’ll be a whole new sound, will there/won’t there be keyboards, wow…there’s Ogre singing on that tune, etc. We know the band line-up is unchanged from RGB (sans drummer?), so barring a major 180 in songwriting styles, already know what we’re in for before tearing the plastic off the case.

Believe me, I want to be 100% wrong about this new album.

1002

Lots of good observations in this thread…

grmpysmrf, I see your point, and kudos for sticking to your guns, but Peligro probably said it best:

“To put that into perspective, imagine how stupid Black Sabbath, Zeppelin or Pink Floyd would have looked today if in the early seventies they had put out three freakin’ albums dedicated to Nixon’s involvement in Watergate.”

Seriously, one album of anti-Bush would’ve been enough…for ANYBODY! I was sick of the guy BEFORE Houses came out. There’s enough websites, articles, parodies, news and critics out there covering Bush. Al could’ve taken his best shot and moved on to something else…for the sake of the fans, at least. I feel like we’re about to get some Rio Grande Blood re-runs this fall. Please, PLEASE let me be wrong.

This is a guy who was always proud of never looking back, and moving forward. This is why we don’t hear Halloween live. This is why a few cities were lucky enough to hear WE Believe performed live 4 years ago. He was always about progression, and changing things up with each new album. Really, he stuck to that until Houses hit. Great album, I still love it, but that was 2004, and by 2005 I was already sick of anything having to do with Bush. Then RGB came along. The change of overall tempo was nice, but the subject matter got old, quick.

I know that RGB isn’t exactly a Houses clone, but Al has confirmed the sameness by calling these final 3 albums a ‘trilogy’. He’s made it clear that these 3 albums are following the same course, and he’s proud of it. So, even if the new album musically sounds completely different, it’s still a third of the freaking Bush Series. But hey, at least it was our President, and not some old news story like Gary Condit, or O.J., right?

The lyrics? Yeah, they’re bad, but I don’t think Al was thinking about quality control while writing them. I think my biggest problem with them (aside from an entry into the Ministry canon titled “The Dick Song”) is that they already sound like songs from the past two albums. Just look at the metre of the lyrics…I can already imagine the music that encompasses them. I realize we’ve never claimed Al to be the quintessential lyricist, but look at the lyrics of “The Dick Song” versus something a little more cerebral, like “Burning Inside”:

Burning Inside

calling a mantra with a blade in the skin
for the demons within
i feel the pain is the death and decay
but the lesson never fades away
too little shadows, turn away
you throw the man through the window pane
another slave and a victim of fate
another lesson in hate
burning inside! burning inside!

(simple melody, but intriguing lyrics)

The Dick Song

He’s starting wars at the drop of a hat………… run run run Cheney’s got a gun
He says he’s certain he’s driving them back
Were almost done
Let’s have another let’s fuck with Iran………. run run run Cheney’s having fun

(ahem)

“Cheney’s got a gun”?! It puts that goddamned Aerosmith song in my head everytime I see it! See, the older songs have a longer shelf life because Al avoids the name-dropping and acute historical references. The lyrics aren’t as plain or ‘in your face’ as “Dick” (or so pedestrian for that matter). Take “Just Like You”, where Al says, “The 1980s was run by a person who’s crazy…”. No Reagan or Ollie North references (deja vu, didn’t I mention that somewhere else?), so that song stands the test of time better (dated drum hits aside). Who knows, maybe Al was a Reagan fan back in those days? These final 3 albums really will become a product of their era as time goes by, and not in a good way. Relevance and impact will be diminished. Does 242’s “Funkhadafi” still make you want to bomb Libya today? Probably not. Seriously, what would you think of Dark Side Of The Moon, Wish You Were Here, and Animals if they were all about Nixon, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, etc.? If the music was the same, great, but pepper the lyrics with name-drops and “I am not a crook” samples, and you have 30-year-old cousins to the Bush Trilogy.

I realize we’re judging only song titles, lyrics, and a press release, but I think the overall concern and criticism is certainly justified.

1002

my personal feeling aside, i think this may be one of the best explanations of how i’m feeling at the moment about the bush topic.

i remember getting into a discussion about this before RGB came out on the piss army. some people liked anti-bush, others not. i had made a similar point, about the spacey non-specific lyrics from the past being more enjoyable to me than the current obvious anti-bush rants. i’m interested in whatever al puts out, but i would have to say that this is just one more thing that bush have fucked us over on. the last 3 ministry albums are about him.

dammit.

but far be it from me to dictate the lyrical content from one of my favorite bands. would i rather hear a song about al’s morning shit instead of one called “the dick song”? yes. but do is till listen to on occasion, the 2 of the 3 anti-bush records already released and get enjoyment from them, even though i am tired of anti-bush rants? yes.

it’s probably just because i am an angry kind of guy. i get so mad at so much for so long. it’s not healthy, lemme tell you. it seems to me that al’s really hates W. not just your normal “what a prick” type of shit, but 3 WHOLE FUCKING ALBUMS worth of hate.

and that’s the kind of hate i can relate to on a personal level. and, as arguably silly as some of these lyrics may seem, behind it all is this seething hatred, or animosity if you will. animositisomina. hatred forwards and backwards, hatred through and through. this is what excites me about the newer ministry. this is what keeps me listening.

and ultimately buying.

MrsJay’s comments from the other Ministry site:

Quoted:

what i am TIRED of is people telling Al to “shut up and play your music” “don’t involve politics” “oh god not bush again”

TLS is the final chapter of Ministry, it is also the final offering in the triology that began at the same time as this war on terror, although, back then it was called “Operatin Iraqi Freedom”

it’s been over 4 years…and where are we now? has the war made things better? do you feel more secure? do you like the price of gas? how’s your student loan application going? how’s your health insurance? has minimum wage gone up in your state? how about your mortgage rate? did your taxes go up? do you have your i.d.?

is America better now than it was in Feb 2003? or is it worse?

luvsmrsjay

here’s the link, towards the end of the page:
[url “http://www.pissarmy.com/viewtopic.php?t=17461&start=40”]http://www.pissarmy.com/...t=17461&start=40

Was that Mrs. J…or CNN?? Seriously, I listen to music as a form of escapism, not to get the latest from the White House.

We as fans are going to analyze, criticize, and scrutinize our favorite artists - that’s what happens. It’s part of the musician/fan dynamic. We don’t just sit back, nod our heads, and smile. When a band becomes huge in the eyes of a fan, the bar is raised, along with expectations. Al doesn’t have to top himself everytime, but if he starts skipping like a broken record, someone is going to say something.

We’re FANS, Mrs. J. We signed up on this forum because Ministry is either our favorite band, or high on the list (or interesting enough to talk about), and we want to talk about them. It’s not all going to be sunshine and bunnies every day. Would be fucking boring if we all loved everything equally like a pack of robots. You’re getting the feedback straight from the source…the fans. We’re not going to tell you what you want to hear, we’re going to tell you how we feel about Ministry’s music, good or bad. Hell, Filth Pig was 11 years ago, I was disappointed, but I’m still here, and still a fan. I got over it. I just don’t want my fucking news from a Ministry album. I voted for Kerry in '04, didn’t work out, so what the hell, I have to wait for this election to try and help make a difference. In the meantime, I have to endure four years of bitching about this fuck-up in office from every possible media outlet - the internet, TV, radio, and now my Ministry albums. Well fuck me!

Listen, I appreciate Al’s spirit, and understand his anger…believe me, there are days I dreamt of bad things happening to this guy (er, Bush, not Al), but our hands our tied until election day, and there’s gotta be something else going on in your lives that is inspirational enough to spawn a great Ministry tune. If it’s nothing but Bush-this and Bush-that at your house 24/7, then I truly feel for you. Al can write about other things, we’ve seen it happen…and why not? Does he have nothing left to say about drugs, Paul Barker, past life experiences, anything fictional? The best Ministry song to come out in a long time was Worthless, in my opinion. Thankfully, it’s not a Bush rant. I feel more energy coming from that song than any of the anti-Bush material. Maybe I feel that personal demons are far more interesting than political ones.

Just being honest, that’s all.

1002

dude…I’m with ya.

i was listening to some of alien dog star’s b-sides and that kind of stuff. just take one track with that burroughs dude spoken word - “quick fix”. man! it is awesome, sort of kinda tribal stuff with that urban atmosphere. very clever. where is that creativity now?

as for mrsjay’s post about that “is america any better now, etc” - i don’t really care, because you see, i don’t live there. every country has it’s problems so i don’t have time to care about america or bush’s conspiracies or whatever there is. i don’t think bush is only reason for “unsatisfactory” output level, look at cocked and loaded, what the hell is that? it doesn’t hold a candle to any of the previous stuff.

my guess is that some people who were in ministry before did bring some influences a little bit; someone here listed burning inside as an example for interesting lyrics - well, it was written by chris and later tweaked by al. that’s just one example. or maybe it’s a coincidence that when the last “long time collaborator” (holy fuckin’ shit) paul barker left, suddenly ministry becomes generic metal band? oh wait, there’s still scaccia but he probably never wrote anything exceps some metal solos.

i don’t know what to say - new ministry offers sort of “no challenge”. although one can count listening to anti-bush trilogy as a challenge.

[laugh]

it’s been over 4 years…and where are we now? has the war made things better? do you feel more secure? do you like the price of gas? how’s your student loan application going? how’s your health insurance? has minimum wage gone up in your state? how about your mortgage rate? did your taxes go up? do you have your i.d.?

is America better now than it was in Feb 2003? or is it worse?

question 1: an abstract question. where are we now in regards to what?
question 2: no war makes things better, and there’s OTHER wars going on in the world too.
question 3: do I feel more secure? sure. security has been heightened in places. I work at a bank and something as simple as that has been secured in many different ways comparing pre and post 9/11
question 4: do I like the price of gas? no. so what do I do about it? I walk more. take public transportation such as light rails or subways. there’s ways to do things more consideratly. if more people were to do this, they’d be forced to lower prices.
quetion 5: student loan application? don’t need one. but my friends who have student loans seem to be fine. haven’t heard any complaints from them.
question 6: no problems with my health insurance.
question 7: minum wage has gone up, and I believe it may have went up again, or at least is going to soon. a few years ago, it was 5.25 and when it went up, I believe it was 7.25.
question 8: sure, mortgage rates go up. they go down. it’s natural.
question 9: did my taxes go up? umm…don’t they always go up?
question 10: of course I have my i.d…not sure what you mean by this question otherwise?

i don’t know what to say - new ministry offers sort of “no challenge”. although one can count listening to anti-bush trilogy as a challenge.

dude too funny.[laugh]

Was that Mrs. J…or CNN?? Seriously, I listen to music as a form of escapism, not to get the latest from the White House.

We as fans are going to analyze, criticize, and scrutinize our favorite artists - that’s what happens. It’s part of the musician/fan dynamic. We don’t just sit back, nod our heads, and smile. When a band becomes huge in the eyes of a fan, the bar is raised, along with expectations. Al doesn’t have to top himself everytime, but if he starts skipping like a broken record, someone is going to say something.

We’re FANS, Mrs. J. We signed up on this forum because Ministry is either our favorite band, or high on the list (or interesting enough to talk about), and we want to talk about them. It’s not all going to be sunshine and bunnies every day. Would be fucking boring if we all loved everything equally like a pack of robots. You’re getting the feedback straight from the source…the fans. We’re not going to tell you what you want to hear, we’re going to tell you how we feel about Ministry’s music, good or bad. Hell, Filth Pig was 11 years ago, I was disappointed, but I’m still here, and still a fan. I got over it. I just don’t want my fucking news from a Ministry album. I voted for Kerry in '04, didn’t work out, so what the hell, I have to wait for this election to try and help make a difference. In the meantime, I have to endure four years of bitching about this fuck-up in office from every possible media outlet - the internet, TV, radio, and now my Ministry albums. Well fuck me!

Listen, I appreciate Al’s spirit, and understand his anger…believe me, there are days I dreamt of bad things happening to this guy (er, Bush, not Al), but our hands our tied until election day, and there’s gotta be something else going on in your lives that is inspirational enough to spawn a great Ministry tune. If it’s nothing but Bush-this and Bush-that at your house 24/7, then I truly feel for you. Al can write about other things, we’ve seen it happen…and why not? Does he have nothing left to say about drugs, Paul Barker, past life experiences, anything fictional? The best Ministry song to come out in a long time was Worthless, in my opinion. Thankfully, it’s not a Bush rant. I feel more energy coming from that song than any of the anti-Bush material. Maybe I feel that personal demons are far more interesting than political ones.

Just being honest, that’s all.

1002

Can’t argue with any of that!
Late,
grmpysmrf

it’s been over 4 years…and where are we now? has the war made things better? do you feel more secure? do you like the price of gas? how’s your student loan application going? how’s your health insurance? has minimum wage gone up in your state? how about your mortgage rate? did your taxes go up? do you have your i.d.?

is America better now than it was in Feb 2003? or is it worse?

question 1: an abstract question. where are we now in regards to what?

take you pick, A better situation Prior to the Chimperor taking office. Better as a nation, Better as personal growth

question 2: no war makes things better, and there’s OTHER wars going on in the world too.

WEll it depends on what side you are on! WWII Got america out of the depression WIN $$$ and they kept more JEWS/BLACKS/GAYS from being killed WIN for HUMANITY, ALso IT Kept Germany from getting Stronger WIN for the GLOBAL SOCIETY. SO Maybe no wars make things better but this is “our” war and 70% of the country wants it stopped. The fact that there are other wars going on in the world really has nothing to so with this question. NOt sure where you were going with on that part…Unless to say why doesn’t Al RAnt about those wars but then I have to refer to the first part of this answer

question 3: do I feel more secure? sure. security has been heightened in places. I work at a bank and something as simple as that has been secured in many different ways comparing pre and post 9/11

LOL I think you missed the point on this one. Are you more secure from outside Terrorists NOT from your fellow American. Security is supposed to be for the Evil foreigners NOT from the Evil POOR/desperate/greedy/whoever else would have reason to rob a bank! Which takes us back to question one, since more people would probably “NEED” to rob a bank now are you any better off?

question 4: do I like the price of gas? no. so what do I do about it? I walk more. take public transportation such as light rails or subways. there’s ways to do things more consideratly. if more people were to do this, they’d be forced to lower prices.

Some people are not in a position to walk more or take public transportation You ever see a RIG driver carrying his load on his back hot footin’ it? or have his boxes stacked up on the bus? Of course THEY are the exception BUT they are a BIG exception if they have to pay more for gas then that means the price of the goods that they are selling goes up. Inflation always hurts. ALso regular Joes are not in the position to to take public transit for the simple fact that there is no PUBLIC transit that runs to their employers. I live in teh High desert where over 60% of the majority of that 60% commute over 200 miles (Round Trip) to get to thier Jobs, No public transit is available for that AND there is no way they are walking. NOt only that if People were to start Relying on public transportation Cost of gas would go up becasue less people are buying gas which means they aren’t turning the profit they think they need so they raise the price on those poor saps that still have no choice but to drive so they can recover their missing profit. We’ve already seen this! Remeber several years ago when gas was on the rise??? People starting having these GAS OUT days where no one would buy gas? Well guess what happened to the price of gas the next day? IT WENT up to recoup the $$ they lost from the previous day!

quetion 5: student loan application? don’t need one. but my friends who have student loans seem to be fine. haven’t heard any complaints from them.

Well the fact that There are MORE AND MORE Private lenders should be a first obvious sign. Loans are based on your parents income so the fact that there are SOOOO Many lenders now should be an an obvious sign that the economy is not good!

question 6: no problems with my health insurance.[quote]

YOU are one of the EXTREMELY lucky ones!! 45 Million do not have health insurance. ANd my guess is you haven’t really had any health problems because even with Health insurance you’d be bitchin about something with the Companies

[quote]question 7: minum wage has gone up, and I believe it may have went up again, or at least is going to soon. a few years ago, it was 5.25 and when it went up, I believe it was 7.25.

Ohh yay let’s carve out a life for under 10 dollars an hour!Let’s raise a family on under 10 dollars an hour! Even still with the minimum wage going up you still make LESS money. FOR example at a minium wage job NOW you need to work a 1/2 HOUR to buy a gallon of gas. Back when Minimum was 5.00 an hour you had to work about 7-8 minutes to buy a gallon of gas…You do the math!

question 8: sure, mortgage rates go up. they go down. it’s natural.

Yeah but bnot to the extent that they have fairly recent history

question 9: did my taxes go up? umm…don’t they always go up?

Doesn’t bushy boy tell you all of the time about how he lowered taxes?? Oh right the priveledge of the upper 1%

[quote]question 10: of course I have my i.d…not sure what you mean by this question otherwise?

The national ID the Prove your an american card!
Late,
grmpysmrf

More extreme sermonizing and questionable information!

then question it! don’t just throw that shit out there as if everyone knows what you are talking about! or was that statement just for giggles? What’s questionable about what she wrote?
Late,
grmpysmrf

kinda in a rush but:
for the gas thing, yes I know that everyone isn’t in that position, but for those who ARE should take advantage of it. the price did go up when everyone protested, that’s expected, but if they continiously do so (and again not everyone can but for those who can) they should go for it.

the bank thing- we actually had closed 3 or 4 accounts who were terrorist acitivy related within the past 3 years. even in a small town in New Jersey, it’s there. I do feel secure knowing that they have been under investigation. little things like that matter in the big picture.

I have been very sick…nearly died a while back! no problems with health insurance. guess I’m one of the lucky ones. I do wanna see “sicko” though.

kinda in a rush but:
for the gas thing, yes I know that everyone isn’t in that position, but for those who ARE should take advantage of it. the price did go up when everyone protested, that’s expected, but if they continiously do so (and again not everyone can but for those who can) they should go for it.[/quote]

Yeah but the original thought was you are not in a better place now than before the chimp took office and the fact that “Choice” has been taken away from you is a prime example. Nobody used to have to seriously “Decide” if they wanted to ride a bike, walk or public tranist it to work, now it’s here. you know it’s a bullshit princaple…Walk Rdie, a bike, or take pucblic transit. It looks like “choice,” but is it really? Shit, choice means you are not “GIVEN” options it means you make your own options. That’s ones of the reasons why I hate those stupid award shows. Veiwers choice and shit…What the fuck?? if it was really viewers choice we’d be able to choose something that wasn’t already pre selected for us…but that’s what we have been brain washed into believing what Choice is…If someone is “GIVING” you a choice then you are under their control because true freedom comes about on your own boundaries not the boundries set by others.

the bank thing- we actually had closed 3 or 4 accounts who were terrorist acitivy related within the past 3 years. even in a small town in New Jersey, it’s there. I do feel secure knowing that they have been under investigation. little things like that matter in the big picture.

So it was said that’s why they were closed…Any proof? Perhaps they were just Normal Americans, Democratic contributors, and Repubs wanted to end that
Perhaps they didn’t even exist at all…Fake Memo! or fake accouts closed out to make it look as though “Victory” was achieved

[quote]I have been very sick…nearly died a while back! no problems with health insurance. guess I’m one of the lucky ones. I do wanna see “sicko” though.

I think you may be quite possibly the only person I’ve ever heard say this… What insurance do you have? I’d like to switch! BTW “Sicko” is fantastic Non partisan and totally (In true Michale Moore Fashion) takes on the plight of the common person. The only person that would NOT LIKE Sicko is anyone that makes their living off of Health Insurance… meaning the actual health Insurance companies. Not actually Doctors, but the execs. If you go to

Crooksandliars.com
(Look on the left hand side and find the CNN LINK)

you can Check out Moore getting into it with Wolf Blitzer about Dr. Gupta trying to Attack it. You can watch the whole interview (I think It’s Whole) on Larry King with Moore and Gupta, and Gupta pretty Much agrees with everything Moore says by the end of the segment and and the stuff Gupta Doesn’t necessarily agree with, he just changes the subject on. For examples Gupta tries to make the point that for “socialized medicine countries” means they’re Drowning in taxes and Moore correctly points out that those taxes aren’t nearly the price of what we pay in this country for premiums and such. So really a few people PAY MORE and still get screwed by the Insurance companies and theres the rest America that get NADA. where as over seas they pay less (even though they are taxes) and EVERYBODY gets treated…So the few people’s Premiums here add up to More Than EVERYONE’S taxes over seas. I’d rather pay a little more in taxes and have EVERYBODY gets treated than pay Mega premiums and only have me MAYBE get treated.

15-20 Dollars a more a month hell even 100.00 a month in taxes is way better than trying to choke out 5 grand in premiums! what good is me walking around all healthy if some non Insurance carrier person is just gonna make me sick again cause they can’t get well?
It’s really worth the watch… Sicko and the CNN peices
Late,
grmpysmrf

You can argue this sort of thing until the cows come home - and there’s no denying that valid points have been made on both sides. But wasn’t the original issue that most people are bored and a little fed up with the path Ministry’s music has taken in the last couple of years? Yr straying from the path. Personally I find it to be clumsy, poorly worded, crude grandstanding. Others may like what he’s doing (HELLO PISSARMY), others may not. Despite what y’all may think I’m hardly the most pro Bush guy out there (yes, he’s a buffoon) - hell I don’t even live in the US!! So I can’t really effectively critique the way a foreign country is being run. But I can critique the album of a band I have been listening to since 1991 - and I think it’s just shite. So disappointing from an artist that has blown my mind so many times with his past output.

Ministry was (once upon a time) a sort of quasi-industrial Killing Joke meets Pil meets Big Black meets Black Sabbath well oiled machine. They were scary. They had an album where Gibby Haynes babbled about hotrods and Jesus and another with deathly techno industrial beats smattered with the creepiest synth and sampling I have ever heard equalled. Suffice to say, from about the age of 18 - I was hooked.

But now?? They have been reduced to a rag tag bunch of thrash metal has beens (Prong anyone??) led by some paranoid left wing madman venting his spleen against the current Administration in the most childish and illeffective way imaginable. Hell, if these albums didn’t bear the Ministry logo (and what a sorry looking logo THAT’s become - Anarchy/Peace signs - could it be any more trite?!?!?) I wouldn’t give them the time of day.

That’s what really bugs the majority of members here. Not how well/poorly the president is running the country. Please Mrs Jay, before you berate us again for…um…not ‘getting it’, remember that it was the music and not it political ‘relevance’ that captivated us all in the first place.

Cos honestly baby…I don’t give a shit who you vote for.

Nor should I.

I hate it when I agree with you. Not that I don’t like the music and it’s direction that Ministry has taken. I actually listen to a lot of metal/thrash/death/black/doom/industrial/whatever. And I like the music in it’s essence. Could care less about the Bush stuff and the political enteatments. I am well informed enough, and to put a tip of the hat a bit more so because of a few things that Al has brought up that I didn’t know about piqued my curiosity, but the lyrics aren’t m,y main focus with Ministry. Never have been. I mean… I could argue things like the Burning Inside lyrics and other such stuff all day, especially versus newer lyrics. But the lyrics were just a background thing to me. Some I liked, some I didn’t. Some I sang, some I mumbled through, some I never bothered to learn at all. But the MUSIC ITSELF, has always been there for me. And still is. I like the direction of the music itself, but for this last album I would prefer to have at least a song for each of the different albums/styles Al has made, or at least a final new frontier like he was once so great about taking us all too.

Peace!

Krowe

You can argue this sort of thing until the cows come home - and there’s no denying that valid points have been made on both sides. But wasn’t the original issue that most people are bored and a little fed up with the path Ministry’s music has taken in the last couple of years? Yr straying from the path. Personally I find it to be clumsy, repetitive, poorly worded, crude and ineffective grandstanding. Very little in the way of variation and innovation and an almost stubborn refusal to embrace anything fresh and original. Others may like what he’s doing (HELLO PISSARMY), others may not. Despite what y’all may think I’m hardly the most pro Bush guy out there (yes, he’s a buffoon) - hell I don’t even live in the US!! So I can’t really effectively critique the way a foreign country is being run without looking like an idiot. But I can critique the album of a band I have been listening to since 1991 - and I think it’s just shite. So disappointing from an artist that has blown my mind so many times with his past output.

Ministry was (once upon a time) a sort of quasi-industrial Killing Joke meets Pil meets Big Black meets Black Sabbath well oiled machine. They were scary and mysterious. They had an album where Gibby Haynes babbled insanely about hotrods and Jesus and another with deathly techno industrial beats smattered with the creepiest synth and sampling I have yet to hear equalled. Suffice to say - one listen and I was hooked.

But what of now?? What is Ministry c. 2007?? Let’s se…They seem to have been reduced to an embarrassing rag tag bunch of thrash metal has beens (Prong anyone??) led by a paranoid left wing madman, artistically stuck in 1993, venting his spleen against the government in the most blatantly lopsided and unoriginal, not to mention downright childish, way imaginable. Hell, if these new albums didn’t bear the Ministry logo (and what a sorry looking logo THAT’s become - incorporated Anarchy/Peace signs?? - could it be any more trite???) I wouldn’t give them the time of day…

And it would seem that that’s what really bugs the majority of members here. Not how well/poorly the president is running the country. Not increased taxes or loopy vice presidents or the ‘price of gas’ (heaven forbid!!!) Please Mrs Jay, before you berate us again with yr schoolmistress standover tactics for…um…not ‘getting it’, remember that it was the music and not it’s political ‘relevance’ that captivated us all in the first place. Stop using ‘the all important message’ to hide this tired and insipid music.

Cos honestly baby…I don’t give a shit who you vote for.

Nor should I. Nor should anyone here.

I think the biggest disappointment is the mystery and sense of discovery that comes with a new Ministry album is gone. No more wondering if it’ll be a whole new sound, will there/won’t there be keyboards, wow…there’s Ogre singing on that tune, etc. We know the band line-up is unchanged from RGB (sans drummer?), so barring a major 180 in songwriting styles, already know what we’re in for before tearing the plastic off the case.

Believe me, I want to be 100% wrong about this new album.

1002

I believe THIS is the best argument that’s been posted so far.
With you all the way on this one, 1002.