Here’s 11 mixes/variations of I Wanted To Tell Her
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1eJJyikVpjnh_IQvd69_UBjbjnNvjzPwE?usp=sharing
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Thank you for sharing. I don’t think I’ve heard “Be Mean To Me” before. Two questions come to mind:
- When/how did Shay Jones join Ministry?
- Who had the idea to add lyrics to Primental?
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In this interview Al says Arista wanted a Whitney Houston-type singer so I presume it was the label’s idea.
Maybe Wempathy can shed some light?
Talks about IWTTH at 29:58
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I’ve probably got this wrong…but I think Shay came into the picture when the sessions at Chicago Recording Company were going on in late summer/early fall of '82? She was brought in specifically to do a vocal for Primental and wrote the bits that she sang. I remember too that she came to Boston in early '83 and did her vocals again for IWTTH. Shay wasn’t one of the Neo/950 crowd and we’d never met her before she came in to lay down some vocals so it’s likely that she was recommended word of mouth to Katsis and he arranged it? Peter was in the habit of suggesting other players and one or two even came by rehearsal and hung out. Plus he had the business connections to inquire about talent.
It seemed that Primental was always aching for lyrics but I don’t remember who actually made that call. Maybe if Wax Trax was paying for the studio time they might have mildly insisted on it? Seems logical.
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“Be Mean To Me” shows that Shay really tore into that performance right from the start whereas Al was struggling to figure out what to do with it. Cool to hear the evolution.
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Same here…TY, I don’t remember hearing it either.
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So its possible that in the above video Al says Arista wanted vocals added to Primental but it could have been Wax Trax who came up with that idea…very interesting.
The vocals added to Primental on Be Mean To Me sound very professional, even Al’s minimal vocal part has some stereo treatment going on.
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I’m sure that we were introduced to Shay well before Arista was in the mix. I can remember going to her hotel in Boston the day she arrived in early '83 and it wasn’t the first time we’d ever met. I’m actually pretty sure that Brad was with me and he wanted to meet Shay. The songs on WS that weren’t conceived and written in Boston started at CRC and the overdubs and vocals were completed/redone at SynchroSound.
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Thanks for sharing all of those versions! There was a few mixes that I had lost over the years.
If you listen closely to Be Mean To Me, Shay’s vocals are the exact same take as what’s heard on the album. I don’t think it was meant to be it’s own version of the song, but rather an "work in progress/proof of concept " type thing. I’m guessing this version was done in Chicago to capture her vocals, and finished in Boston, since the proper demo has all the nice guitar work by Walter Turbit.
Then of course the band re-recorded the entire track for the 12"/7" version, which should all be Syncro Sound recordings.
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I just overlaid Be Mean To Me and the album version of IWTTH in my recording program and yes it definitely is the same vocal. I initially didn’t expect it to be the same because as you said, it seemed like a ‘working tape’ etc.
Quite likely then they used the original Primental recording and built on top of it for IWTTH.
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Perhaps then, Shay was in Boston to record some vox other than IWTTH? I can’t imagine any other reason for her to be there. I’m sure it wasn’t the first time we’d met.
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I’m guessing the 12" version of I Wanted To Tell Her was done in Boston, as it has a different vocal take (and different lyrics in parts) She’s also on A Walk In The Park, which sounds like a weird dub version of another song.
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I checked the liners of With Sympathy and couldn’t find any acknowledgment of the early work done on the album in Chicago…Iain Burgess doesn’t even get a mention. Too bad.
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If the CRC sessions had been on Arista’s dime then perhaps Iain, and engineer Tom Hansen, would have been credited. As it is, many who assisted and supported the band in the early days went unmentioned. All in the name of shameless self promotion.
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Thank you wempathy!
How does this look for a possible timeline (1981 - 1984)?
Fall 1981 - “Cold Life” / “I’m Falling” recorded.
December 1981 - first rehearsals and live performance for Ministry (let’s call it v1.0)
February 1982 - First recording sessions at Heddon West Studios in Schaumburg. “Same Old Madness”, “Primental”, “Revenge”, and “She’s Got A Cause” likely recorded.
Spring 1982 - early live performances; Cold Life /I’m Falling re-issued (red/yellow sleeve)
Summer 1982 - more live performances; CRC demo recordings of “Revenge” “Same Old Madness” Work For Love” “She’s Got A Cause”
Fall 1982 - More CRC demos; Shay joins; Arista deal; Al and Stevo to Boston to start recording
Winter 1983 - Syncro Sound recordings (remaining WS songs); Mark and Brad join; Rob rejoins; “Work For Love” released
Spring 1983 - “With Sympathy” released and promotion; IWTTH single release; tour rehearsals commence;
Summer 1983 - “With Sympathy” tour (Ministry v2.0 lineup); Hardman" and “So So Life” are written and performed live
Fall 1983 - “With Sympathy” tour concludes; band returns to Chicago and commences recording at Pierce-Arrow.
Winter 1983/1984 - Demos recorded for second Arista album (“The Game Is Over”, “Same Old Scene”)
Spring 1984 - Arista rejects demos (presumably includes “Everyday is Halloween”, “All Day”, “Nature of Love”)
Summer 1984 - Al severs ties with Arista
Fall 1984 - Ministry v3.0 launches Wax Trax! tour with Front 242
Anyone welcome to help fill-in the blanks…
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Nice job on the list!
Here’s a few possible corrections-
I think the I’m Falling/Cold Life 12" came out in late 1981, I believe the release predates the first show. They reissued it in the Spring of 1982 (the red envelope sleeve) to reflect the new line up.
Same Old Madness would have been part of the CRC sessions in 1982, like the other 4 demos, it has multiple mixes of the same performance. I think Effigy was done entirely in Boston. I can’t find any earlier mixes or demos of it.
The Game is Over and other “album 2” demos are definitely winter (November/December) of 1983.
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In that Divine footage from Halloween 81 the interview with Jay O’Rourke indicates that Cold Life / I’m Falling was recorded right around that time so probably October 81.
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Thanks for the feedback!! Made updates to the timeline.
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Feb '82 - First recording sessions with Al, Stevo, Rob & JD at Heddon West Studios in Schaumburg. Likely recorded ‘Same Old Madness’, and early versions of ‘Primental’, ‘Revenge’ and ‘She’s Got a Cause’ at this time.
‘Hardman’ was written in Al’s coach house apartment by Al, Frankie Nardiello and myself on a sweltering afternoon in the summer of '83 during a break in the WS tour. It blossomed from a Drowning Craze song that Frankie had written the lyrics for.
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