Surprised this wasn’t raised here. Am I the only one who thinks that they should just let this die. Nothing has come out of the Detroit car industry since decades ago.
I blame innovation and unions.
No Mr. Moore, it isn’t top executives bankrupting the car industry, it’s unions such as this:
People who get paid for years to simply do nothing. Great jobs, unions!
On top of this, American cars don’t last and are bad quality - you go to an auto shop, you will see a lot of American cars in there. You still see Toyotas from the 80s being driven around.
I say let Detroit die. It’s down the tubes. I don’t want any of my money going to them.
I think the long term effect would be better if they were let to die. I mean it’s a dying industry and I honestly do not believe any amount of dollars will rescue any of them totally clear. Money will prolong it but not save it. This isn’t the first time.
Last time Chrysler was bailed out, they promised they would be more efficient with the cars they put out, competing with the Germans and Japanese and what did they do? Bought the rights to the Hummer. Wow.
Get rid of unions and innovate. They should be jumping on this electric car thing but they won’t. They’ll take the money and continue to do what they do best: nothing.
Maybe it’s because I grew up overseas where I never saw American cars, but to me, they’re junk. True junk. I don’t think there is one good efficient and lasting American car out there. Not quality. They’ve been playing catchup with the Japanese since the 80s and are still way, way behind. It doesn’t take a genius to know that SUVs for example, wouldn’t be as popular the more in time we go along. Oil is becoming less and less.
I have no opinion about American cars since I live in Europe, all I can say is that they tend to be much cheaper than European cars…
However, the whole electric and hybrid cars thing seems like a joke at the moment… The latest Ford Fiesta burns less gas than a Prius does and the diesel version releases so little carbon dioxide that owners dont even have to pay the pollution tax thing… And yes, I know Ford is an American company. I was just making a point.
Normally I would be all for letting detroit die, BUT I agree with above poster, the ripple effect will be devestating and I know you said you think it will be better in the long run I don’t think we’d be able to recover from a blow that hard, so there would be no long run.
I think a better idea, rather than bailing them out, would be to bring in and independent auditor to redistribute the pay scales. It’s absurd to think a CEO gets paid millions for doing less work than a laborer.
As far as the unions go… I don’t know if you tend to lean conservative or it’s because you grew up over seas (which you mentioned) but the unions keep the Bussinesses in check because as we are currently seeing, unchecked bussiness tends to be really corrupt and greedy. Unions keep people from being pushed out the door because of unpopularity with co-workers or bosses. I think Unions are an absolute MUST within any working environment! Check out Wal Mart’s treatment of workers based on them not having a Union!
Late,
grmpysmrf
As long as the unions are calling the shots nothing will change. Unfortunately, as far as I know, bankruptcy is the only way the big 3 can shake that monkey off their bank. It’s damned if you do damned if you don’t. However, since the democratic party takes huge campaign contributions from the unions, under the new regime I don’t think they will be dealt with appropriately.
You guys don’t think this is all nationalism and doesn’t worry you? The last thing you want is govt taking over important financial sectors in the country? I love America’s capitalistic society - I left Europe for it. No other country has the American dream and that’s what makes the system here good for all.
I think it needs to be humanely put down in a manner that allows the economy time to adapt. I don’t see a long term future for the auto industry in general. Does anyone think people will be driving cars 100 years from now?
You guys don’t think this is all nationalism and doesn’t worry you? The last thing you want is govt taking over important financial sectors in the country? I love America’s capitalistic society - I left Europe for it. No other country has the American dream and that’s what makes the system here good for all.
These businesses are asking for help, the government didn’t just barge its way in and take over. I don’t see it as nationalism at all… I’m pretty sure I’ve posted before about this BUT you can have elements of another government within our own government and that doesn’t mean that those elements have taken over.
These were republican talking points during the campaign and they bugged me to no end!
The Republican Party (to me) is quaint and out of date, WAAAAAY out of date. The Repubs first showed up to keep government from becoming too big and too powerful thereby effectively putting business ahead of government…that was fine 150 years ago but now Business is way bigger and way more powerful than the government. Business has effectively taken the government over. So they have taken long route to become what they were scared of.
Of course Repubs don’t want the government to take back some of the powers that it once had because that would mean corporations would lose its power. People are allowed to petition the government good luck trying to petition wal mart, Chrysler, nike, etc… For the most part the government is pretty fair (save for the last eight years) because of the checks and balances that are in place. You don’t have those assurance within a company, nor will you ever get them!
If our government is so inefficient, how come these businesses have to ask for help from it? I guess the bottom line is that I trust a Government far quicker than I would trust a corporation.
Late,
grmpysmrf
Blame poor business philosophy and method of design engineering. Those portions of the business are not unionized.
The difference was that non-American auto manufacturers recognized a difference in philosophy on how to solve their engineering problems and focused on increased profit over the long-term. The Japanese studied and applied concurrent versus stove-pipe design engineering and developed the process controls to significantly increased the reliability / availability / maintainability / quality / simplicity of their product by perfecting relatively few models. American manufacturers looked at the short-term profit potential by trying to sell sheer volume of multiple disposable products based on the fear of non-patriotism when purchasing foreign product. The domestics eventually caught on and started using the same philosophies and the chassis / engines / parts for multiple makes and models, but too little too late. No more corporate jets and limos. The American people voted in who they wanted for auto manufacturers with their money over the last 30 to 40 years.
If you know an American civil engineer, ask them if they import or buy American-made steel for their American projects. If they reply that all steel is now imported into the U.S., tell them they are full of shit. http://www.ussteel.com/corp/index.asp The ripple-down effect has been being felt for nearly 30 years. However, it’s about to get even worse because what needs to be properly restructured will not be restructured. Who polices the police? Labor unions are for the rights and benefits of the company workers to press for employee health care, safety, and pay. They do not dictate the design, company philosophy, or how much the company CEO gets paid unless the CEO is the head of the union. Just remember that the company can do anything the company wants and get away with it regardless of what the company policy says. It has to be a law they are breaking and someone has to come forward with proof before anything will change. Note: Unless the majority of workers are unionized and strike all at once, a strike in the state of FL is worthless: FL is a right to work state - you don’t wanna work, nobody gives a shit and they will hire someone else to do the job or train current employees to do your job. You don’t like it, leave.
I think you guys who stated bankruptcy as the only way out are right. One of the types of restructuring debt bankruptcies may very well be their only way out of the hole they dug for themselves.
Grmpy is right. The government is the only entity that can assume the liability.
Now back to the cars.
Check the mileage on the Jetta TDI (says 41) and ask a VW owner how much they really get. Is it worth the extra cost of the diesel over the cost of the hybrid?
Let’s not forget about CNG and GH2 with COPV tanks. They are becoming more popular around the world as the green vehicles gain popularity. However, I’d ask if those COPVs are aerospace-grade and if the techs have been critical skill certified to inspect and work on them. Leak-before-rupture versus rupture-before-leak makes all the difference in occupant survival. Cyclic fatigue.
We need to further develop electric car storage battery technologies before these type of cars go into mass production to make them more efficient because they can create environmental issues with their EOL disposal.
I really blame unions as well as mismanagement. Here in Chicago, people don’t even use union guys for construction anymore (a lot of Eastern European workers here without unions). Yes, that’s right: you can build a house and the brick layers won’t stop after they’ve laid x amount of bricks. Sigh…
If other countries were bailing people out like this, the US would be SO pissed off…
Does anyone think people will be driving cars 100 years from now?
We’ll have grown wings by then. [;)]
On the topic of unions and corps, from an ideolgical standpoint: unions are essential when dealing with corporations because corporations, largely, do not have intentions to benefit society (apart from obviously providing employment opportunities), this accords to the rule of capitalism and so for our well being and livelihoods there has to be some level of protection and regulation. To quote Pauly B: “The march of progress has no conscience, only friends.”
But in reality unions do not always work for their purpose intended. They frequently exploit any situation for their own benefit and essentially begin to operate like businesses which is sick. I know of one union figure here in Ireland who is a total hypocrite; preaches that everyone should live modestly and look after one another (a big advocate of social housing) but he himself lives in a big fuck off house in the country away from all the unpleasantries, drives a Jaguar etc. Total disingenuous cunt.
In saying that though I would still give the benefit of the doubt to a union before a corp and I have no time for the Thatcherite extreme right wing misanthropic view towards unions. I detest that bitch just as much as she detests all of us.
On a simple level both corps and unions need to work healthily in conjunction with each other. Both need to monitored consistently and thoroughly by an independent ethics committee (whose members can show that they are educated) and not necessarily a media watchdog as they have tendencies to strive for sensationalism by making mountains out of molehills.
If our government is so inefficient, how come these businesses have to ask for help from it? I guess the bottom line is that I trust a Government far quicker than I would trust a corporation.
Actually to me, they are one of the same. On the board of directors in most major companies, you will find Senators.
And this mess is not just a republican thing. Rahm Emanuel, Obama’s Chief of Staff, was on the board of directors of Freddie Mac. Joe Biden has a shady connection to credit card companies. Obama and the UAW have a strong relationship, etc, etc. So it’s from both sides. Especially living in Illinois, it’s easy to see that corruption happens on both sides.
As far as the nationalism thing - when a government steps in and buys most shares in a company, whether they were asked to or not, it’s nationalism. That’s what nationalism is. It’s not a bad thing, but it’s not an American thing either, which is what the point of many Republicans was.
Do I think we should have bailed out the banks? Of course - with stricter checks in place and as a loan not as a blank check (it’s not $800 billion - it’s closer to a few trillion actually. They duped us on that). Yes, that’s right: The U.S. government is now willing to spend more than $7 trillion to help rescue the economy. That’s about $23,000 for every American, and more than half of U.S. annual gross domestic product. Fine okay. But where do we draw the line? Are we going to bailout the American Dentist industry too?
Instead of perhaps bailing out an already dying industry in the US such as Detroit, why not redo the Amtrak train system and install high speed trains? This will get the economy back and track and this will create way more jobs. Kind of like how they made highways during the Depression. Well do so here with alternative energy and/or trains.
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If our government is so inefficient, how come these businesses have to ask for help from it? I guess the bottom line is that I trust a Government far quicker than I would trust a corporation.
Actually to me, they are one of the same. On the board of directors in most major companies, you will find Senators.
And this mess is not just a republican thing. Rahm Emanuel, Obama’s Chief of Staff, was on the board of directors of Freddie Mac. Joe Biden has a shady connection to credit card companies. Obama and the UAW have a strong relationship, etc, etc. So it’s from both sides. Especially living in Illinois, it’s easy to see that corruption happens on both sides.
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i completely agree with everything you say here afra. when i watched Fahrenheit 911… I didn’t think “man, bush is a piece of shit”. I thought “the USA is a corporation - nothing more”.
I say if the car industries show Congress (and the public) a good, solid and efficient plan on how they will compete in the long run with international competition and if they improve their quality and lessen the union’s grips on them, then yes give them the money. As a loan that they must repay though as was done previously to Chrysler. Just don’t write a blank check without a check and balance system because then it’s going to keep happening.
Glad we all solved the world’s problems. Next issue: Venezuela and their oil.
LOAN only. If they can’t pay it then let the company burn. The whole thing is a mess. I buy American to support it, but I can’t find the alternative overseas to a Wrangler.