If I fuck up my job, I can end up in prison.
I want to see the same accountability for those involved in fixing this fiasco.
for those with netflix watch “who killed the electric car”. I think you can watch it right off their network… i just saw it… great movie
GM shuts down production for January
By Kristine Owram, THE CANADIAN PRESS
2008-12-12 13:15:00
Bailout package dead
TORONTO - The Canadian auto industry shuddered Friday after U.S. lawmakers defeated a massive bailout proposal, domestic and Japanese automakers curtailing production and extending temporary layoffs as the finance minister promised aid talks will continue.
General Motors (NYSE:GM) said Friday it will shut down virtually all of its North American production for the entire month of January, cutting another 250,000 vehicles from its first-quarter production schedule by temporarily closing 21 factories across North America.
The unions did not agree to decrease wages. See what I mean?
Afra will probably enjoy this.
Want to see how a plant should be run?
Check this out:
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189
Awesome stuff.
During Reagan’s Presidency, the air controllers all went on strike. Did Reagan stand around and agree to their expensive demands? No. He fired every single one of them and they were replaced by people who worked and were content with the pay.
The UAW bosses are probably millionaires. It’s sick.
Each should have saved the millions per year in union wages that they were making for that rainy day that has now arrived.
The union employees should not have bought the over-priced house that they could not make the payments on, had so many children that they now have to feed, or bought new car(s) with their employee discount either.
Poor long-term planning on their part as well as their employer.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081115120240AAH89X2
$28/hour gross pay sounds about right.
$75/hour would include the $28/hour plus the benefit contributions that the employer pays on behalf of the employee.
The unions did not agree to decrease wages. See what I mean?
Why should they? It wasn’t the union’s (or the worker’s) piss poor management of funds and product design. Especially when the CEOs that ran the company into the ground hardly need the amount of money they make. $28 dollars an hour is barely a middle class wage and shitty compared to the amount of work that they do for it. CEO’s do an easier job and horribly I might add and make disgustingly more! Let the workers keep their wage. CUT THE CEO pay! I say again Unions are necessary to keep the worker from getting fucked by the business.
I’m pretty sure the unions are responsible for minimum wage. And let’s look at minimum wage for what it is, huh! It’s a way to keep businesses from fucking over the people even more. When you make minimum wage, that’s really your employer telling you, “If I could pay you less I would, BUT IT’S AGAINST THE LAW!”
During Reagan’s Presidency, the air controllers all went on strike. Did Reagan stand around and agree to their expensive demands? No. He fired every single one of them and they were replaced by people who worked and were content with the pay.
Not entirely true. The air traffic controllers staged a “wild cat strike” (“Wild cat” means not union approved) and because of the nature of their job they MAY NOT STRIKE… (“As federal employees the controllers were violating the no-strike clause of their employment contracts.”) Reagan fired insubordinate workers NOT union members. So in effect the Union had nothing to do with the strike or ultimately their firing. BTW, they wanted higher wages, a shorter work week, and better retirement benefits. Considering the stress of their jobs, I can understand at least 2/3 demands. If they are going to get more money they shouldn’t get a shorter work week BUT that’s neither here nor there because the union didn’t have shit to do with that strike.
[reply]mooney
$28/hour gross pay sounds about right. [/reply]
That’s because it is right.
$75/hour would include the $28/hour plus the benefit contributions that the employer pays on behalf of the employee.
Nope, the $75 figure comes when you average out EVERYONE’S wages, including the retired, health benefits of the retired, current salaries and current health benefits.
Are Unions perfect? By no stretch of the imagination are they… But at least they level the playing field a bit between workers and employers… I still think Employers easily have the upper hand over workers. Just think how much more fucked the country would be if the employers were allowed to run over everyone unchecked. Guaranteed sweat shops would be the norm.
Late,
grmpysmrf
I’m not saying unions should disappear. They have done good in the past and brought on health care and better hours etc.
But if they don’t want to cut back on wages, then they will have none apparently. At least that’s what Congress is saying.
Pardon me for not specifically stating that $75/hour was an AVERAGE for EVERYONE that the company pays. I thought that was implied because we know that everyone in the company does not earn $28/hour.
We are all saying the same thing.
I am an avowed free market capitalist. Bailouts, loan guarantees what have you make my skin crawl, whether it is for Wall Street or Main Street. Failing business should be allowed to fail. However, I’m also a very pragmatic free market capitalist. In this case, the cost of doing nothing, versus the cost of providing certain assistance is undoubtedly higher when you consider that the legacy cost that talking heads bark about don’t simply “go away”. They are shifted to taxpayers regardless in case of bankruptcy or other termination of pension plans. And the cost will be far, far higher than providing assistance and forcing automakers to reduce costs by restructuring wages for all, debt/bond holders and retirement related costs. That can and needs to be done, but you don’t do that over tea on a weekend as some folks like to believe.
I whole heartedly agree with everything you have said here! I know I couldn’t have said it better. Simply put, letting Detroit die would hurt the US worse than bailing them out… Somebody on an earlier post wrote that, to keep the bailout from becoming nationalism the bail out should be a loan, I agree with that as well, same with Wall Street, They need to pay that shit back!!
The UAW bosses are probably millionaires. It’s sick.
Even if they were, which they are probably not, the only people with room to bitch about it are the workers being represented by said unions.
I’m fairly certain UAW president Ron “Goldfinger” Gettelfinger gets a salary of approximately $138K/yr.
The UAW has 22 regional directors who make modestly north of $100K/yr.
Their salaries/benefits are paid via union dues.
That is correct, Unions take NO money directly from the employer. All Money that unions have comes directly off of the backs of the workers. So again If anyone wants to bitch about unions the only ones to do so are the workers. So if the unions want to keep getting paid they had better represent their clientel excellently or else the workers can vote to dissolve the union. If the unions were corrupt it only hurts the workers. BTW I think that the repubs that voted against the bailout in the senate (because all that voted no were repubs-so much for bi-partisan politics!!!) are trying to break the union! just my two cents
Late,
grmpysmrf
I can see where they are coming from. I can see where the Democrats are coming from too, however, when we draw the line? Many republicans who voted against it are in the mentality of not wanting to help out big business in their times of trouble. Free markets and all that.
Republicans are also for the change of the way the Fed works as is Europe. This, I completely agree with.
Democrats are also quite corrupt - don’t think they’re not. They were on the Boards of Directors for a lot of these companies. I mean look at Illinois for a good example of how a strong Democratic state is run - it’s rampant with corruption. I don’t mind it but it is hypocritical when people always point fingers to Republicans.
And this Obama guy - for those who haven’t heard of him, he’s a dude who they say will change the US. Eh, I doubt it. The people he has chosen are Clinton-esque. Yawn. I hated Clinton. I’ll keep my mind open for the next few years, but there is nothing much a President can do to change a country. Think lobby groups and corporations.
Republicans are also for the change of the way the Fed works as is Europe. This, I completely agree with.
I need to check this out. I’m not familiar with this… Thanks for the subject [;)]
Democrats are also quite corrupt - don’t think they’re not. They were on the Boards of Directors for a lot of these companies. I mean look at Illinois for a good example of how a strong Democratic state is run - it’s rampant with corruption. I don’t mind it but it is hypocritical when people always point fingers to Republicans.
Well, I honestly don’t know the state of affairs in Illinois, what corruption do you refer to?(the governor you mean? that guy’s an ass!!!)
I think the difference is the degree of greed… For my eyes, Crats usually throw the working man a bone, Where as Repubs absolutely refuse, REFUSE! to throw anyone anything, and not only that, but make those would ask for anything feel like shit for asking. So whereas repubs ar 100% greedy the Crats are like 95% greedy cause they don’t want to be seen as assholes, Repubs philosophy “Who cares if I’m an asshole I’m an asshole with a shitload of money!”
And this Obama guy - for those who haven’t heard of him, he’s a dude who they say will change the US. Eh, I doubt it. The people he has chosen are Clinton-esque. Yawn. I hated Clinton. I’ll keep my mind open for the next few years, but there is nothing much a President can do to change a country. Think lobby groups and corporations.
I think Obama is ok with his cabinet picks i really don’t mind some Clinton appointments hell clinton created jobs and left us with a surplus I’d be ok with that sort of obama legacy… Just hopefully he doesn’t folow down Clintons Nafta & GATT brainchildren. Clinton’s biggest fuck yo to the working man!
Late,
grmpysmrf
Everytime I see this thread I think of the scene from Office Space where they are out in a field with the printer.
back up in yo ass with the resurrection, Cause it’s die mutha fukka die, mutha fukka die!
I adore that movie!! I’m no Jennifer Aniston fan but she is so hot in that movie.
Late,
grmpysmrf
(1. I’m here because PA would let me back in)
Surprised this wasn’t raised here. Am I the only one who thinks that they should just let this die. Nothing has come out of the Detroit car industry since decades ago.
I blame innovation and unions.
No Mr. Moore, it isn’t top executives bankrupting the car industry, it’s unions such as this:
http://mu-warrior.blogspot.com/2006/03/general-motors-paying-people-not-to.html
People who get paid for years to simply do nothing. Great jobs, unions!
On top of this, American cars don’t last and are bad quality - you go to an auto shop, you will see a lot of American cars in there. You still see Toyotas from the 80s being driven around.
I say let Detroit die. It’s down the tubes. I don’t want any of my money going to them.
I agree they should not be bailed-out, not because US products are inferior but because US management and labor relations have resulted in a situation where US workers get $30/hr more than non-US workers. Even with a quality product, no company can survive in a Global market with that economic disparity.
It isn’t the quality of the cars. The quality assurance, manufacturing process controls, fast engineering lead-times for new products are first-rate in the US companies. But bloated top management, tedious union negotiations are built-in self-destruct mechanisms that no amount of cash thrown at these flawed companies will fix.
If jobs are the issue, they will be lost even if the companies continue to run. Unless we want to subsidize the workers’ salaries and insist upon thorough top-down changes, the companies will die.
It isn’t just Detroit, but NAFTA and Global Economic
(1. I’m here because PA would let me back in)
I’m assuming that was supposed to be “would not”
I thought all the fat kids loved you over at PA? what happened?
Late,
grmpysmrf
There are a couple things at play.
The credit crisis being the major one. If people are not being given credit or have to have perfect credit to buy a new auto then there is no point in keeping the same amount of auto production because very few people can pay cash in full.
Although today’s American auto product has improved quality / reliability / maintainability / mileage, the U.S. public’s perception of poor domestic auto quality does not go away over night.
GM and Ford are global companies and have been for many many years. Honda (1982), Nissan (1983), and Toyota (1985) are now “American” companies. How much money are Honda/Nissan/Toyota’s U.S. workers getting paid and are they union?
The UAW refused to negotiate any further reduction in pay as a portion of a potential solution to a way out. I see why.
Given enough time, are all companies with auto worker-type retirement benefits doomed in a similar way?
Besides getting rid of a couple of execs (or making them work for $1/year) and saving the retirement benefits of several employees, ask the employees where/how the company can save more money in other areas.