Al's Burned Bridges...

Discussion
21

There’s a huge difference between Al and Trent. Trent does the majority of the stuff by himself, while there are contributions from other “members”, it’s mainly him. Lately it’s been him and Atticus Ross (whose mainly just a co-producer, I think). Al has an entire band doing the music just about, while he contributes a few things, he hasn’t had a huge finger on everything (I dont’ think) since after LORAH or Mind: where it became an actual band instead of Al doing twitch by himself with some help, or Al and Paul doing LORAH.

I still wonder how much musical contribution Al has given on the last few albums. I was surprised to find out that he did the entire Rio Grande Blood song by himself, which proves he can go without anyone else but doesn’t.

22

i find it odd that sometimes people think that people do themselves a dis-service when they’re involved in music and don’t get a “fair shake” so to speak. when i began reading the book chris had wrote, i never really got the feeling that al had meant to invite people into the “band” permanently. it always seemed like they were invited/welcome to come along and help create, but ultimately it was always more of a hired gun position. (excluding paul, although depending on the interview…heh) like al always would have the final say in what gets put out.

i think some people mistake that as being a dictator or what have you. it’s just how the man gets things done. i doubt anyone was ever held against their will and forced to record with him. as is the natural order of things, people who didn’t like the way he runs things eventually moved on.

musicians by trade gets jobs doing what they’re skilled at: creating music.

23

Word up. Al’s not particularly friendly… but then again, neither is his music.

And catgoat… I have to say, I find your avatar to be strangely sexy.

24

There’s a huge difference between Al and Trent. Trent does the majority of the stuff by himself, while there are contributions from other “members”, it’s mainly him. Lately it’s been him and Atticus Ross (whose mainly just a co-producer, I think). Al has an entire band doing the music just about, while he contributes a few things, he hasn’t had a huge finger on everything (I dont’ think) since after LORAH or Mind: where it became an actual band instead of Al doing twitch by himself with some help, or Al and Paul doing LORAH.

I still wonder how much musical contribution Al has given on the last few albums. I was surprised to find out that he did the entire Rio Grande Blood song by himself, which proves he can go without anyone else but doesn’t.

yeah… another difference being that trent is a waste of space shithead who writes sad skinny puppy rip off songs, and Al is a pretty cool musician.

25

Trent does the majority of the stuff by himself, while there are contributions from other “members”, it’s mainly him.

from what i heard some old “members” of nin would disagree with this a lot. i’d love to know exactly who did what back on the old albums when it was supposedly mostly trent as i personally think his music has steadily gone downhill after all of the old timers left around fragile.

26

I am not sure I understand LORDPIKO’S stance, the thing about making records, and the philosophy that I adhere to is that if you want to make your own records, no one is going to stop you, unless you are under contract or whatever, Al, Paul and everyone else in that org. I was involved with were more than happy to encourage you to do what you want, I have been like that with people I worked with in bands “you don’t like it? then don’t be unhappy, do something you want to do”
The reason I make records now is to make the music I hear in my head, it’s like painting…

27

That CC is a class act.

28

I am not sure I understand LORDPIKO’S stance, the thing about making records, and the philosophy that I adhere to is that if you want to make your own records, no one is going to stop you, unless you are under contract or whatever, Al, Paul and everyone else in that org. I was involved with were more than happy to encourage you to do what you want, I have been like that with people I worked with in bands “you don’t like it? then don’t be unhappy, do something you want to do”
The reason I make records now is to make the music I hear in my head, it’s like painting…

i understand exactly what you are saying.

and i would liek to thank you for commenting, it is real great of yout o help clear things up. :slight_smile:

29

[reply]There’s a huge difference between Al and Trent. Trent does the majority of the stuff by himself, while there are contributions from other “members”, it’s mainly him. Lately it’s been him and Atticus Ross (whose mainly just a co-producer, I think). Al has an entire band doing the music just about, while he contributes a few things, he hasn’t had a huge finger on everything (I dont’ think) since after LORAH or Mind: where it became an actual band instead of Al doing twitch by himself with some help, or Al and Paul doing LORAH.

I still wonder how much musical contribution Al has given on the last few albums. I was surprised to find out that he did the entire Rio Grande Blood song by himself, which proves he can go without anyone else but doesn’t.

yeah… another difference being that trent is a waste of space shithead who writes sad skinny puppy rip off songs, and Al is a pretty cool musician.[/reply]

Eek! thats pretty harsh on Trent. Sure his words can be a bit gay at times but he made some of the best fucking music during the 1990s. ‘The Downward Spiral’ is still one of the best albums ever made. Personally I would be reluctant to call Al a cool musician, particularly since what he has become in the last few years. Face it, he’s just a louder grumpier version of Green Day at this stage. He has been a part of some great stuff in the past but then again wasnt he a junkie for the most of Ministry’s timeline, what does that say? His music, if you take it instrument by instrument (as enjoyable as it is and how he made a great partnership with Paul), is fairly basic; not much musical skill involved. Not that Trent is an exceptionally talented musician either (or any Indutrial act for that matter.)

30

[reply]

yeah… another difference being that trent is a waste of space shithead who writes sad skinny puppy rip off songs, and Al is a pretty cool musician.

Eek! thats pretty harsh on Trent. Sure his words can be a bit gay at times but he made some of the best fucking music during the 1990s. ‘The Downward Spiral’ is still one of the best albums ever made. Personally I would be reluctant to call Al a cool musician, particularly since what he has become in the last few years. Face it, he’s just a louder grumpier version of Green Day at this stage. He has been a part of some great stuff in the past but then again wasnt he a junkie for the most of Ministry’s timeline, what does that say? His music, if you take it instrument by instrument (as enjoyable as it is and how he made a great partnership with Paul), is fairly basic; not much musical skill involved. Not that Trent is an exceptionally talented musician either (or any Indutrial act for that matter.)[/reply]

ive had this talk with quite a few people, but to me at least, trent is nothing more than a whiney marlyn manson. through the 90s there were SO MANY great industrial/gothindustrial bands and one man projects that its unfair howmuch love trent gets. Pig is hands down better than anything NIN made.

but still, id say that al’s attacks get mislabled as ‘anti-bush’, they arent just anti-bush, they are anti the whole old white man system. greenday is a liberal whine machine, al is railing on corruption in our (mine at least) government, and on powerhungry orginizations (NWO and such)…

Al has a lot to say… always has… trent… not so much.

31

While not completely thought provoking, give Trent a little credit. TDS and Broken are quite good.

His Dead Souls and GDML covers are better than 95% of Covered Up.

And Trent’s simple act of trying to put a picture of GWB during his MTV awards performance was more effective than the entire triology that Al put out.

Al did have some pretty good stuff back in the day. He’s just lost steam over the past few years.

-al

32

I am not sure I understand LORDPIKO’S stance, the thing about making records, and the philosophy that I adhere to is that if you want to make your own records, no one is going to stop you, unless you are under contract or whatever, Al, Paul and everyone else in that org. I was involved with were more than happy to encourage you to do what you want, I have been like that with people I worked with in bands “you don’t like it? then don’t be unhappy, do something you want to do”
The reason I make records now is to make the music I hear in my head, it’s like painting…

I was mainly just expressing my opinion of how I would deal with that, and my “disgust” of the term “other musician”. It’s cool that you enjoyed it and all, but I was speaking more in the sense of “how I would feel not being consider IN the band, but only labeled as one of those other musicians”. That’s all.

33

Now I see what your saying…

34

class act indeed.

on the trent thing, i would have to agree TDS is fucking amazing album imho. and live i have never been disappointed. that being said i can’t stand with-a-teeth-a or the newer one, i don’t even remember the name anymore. bleh.

35

CC isn’t just a class act… he is THE class act. [:)]

36

I maintain that TDS is the greatest industrial album of all time.
Yes, I’m serious! It’s the culmination of all the threads of the genre up to that point. The metal, experimental, pop, goth, and dance influences are all there and they’ve never been blended with more skill. Most of the album’s detractors dislike it to spite its popularity, or complain of it’s “whiny” lyrics, which to my mind is simply a way of saying “I prefer songs about cyborgs and serial killers to songs about emotions, since they make me think I might be gay.”

37

TDS is a 10/10 album, no doubt about it…
I am really bored of Closer tho, but who isnt?

38

TDS is great, though I like Broken better. Broken doesn’t have any of the really really bad lyrics like you get in “Big Man with a Gun”.

It’s not because I fear homosexuality that I think some of Trent’s lyrics are bad (big Magnetic Fields fan here and that guy’s not exactly Joe Hetero) it’s the fact that a lot of his lyrics come across “high school poetry” to an embarrassing degree. Yeah, I’ll agree that Front Line Assembly and their ilk are also pretty damn “high school” in their approach to lyrics but that’s not the discussion here.

I think that “Year Zero” is easily his best album from a lyrical level. He still uses the same palette of words but he uses them better these days. Musically it doesn’t have the impact of TDS but I’d be an idiot to expect it to.

39

I"how I would feel not being consider(ed) IN the band, but only labeled as one of those other musicians".

Although it was during the band’s infancy, I was actually on both sides of that fence at one time or another.

I loved being in the band when we would write and rehearse a song one night and play it out the next night. Then record it a couple of weeks later. An inspired group effort.

I loathed it when I came back as more or less a hired-hand and had to sleepwalk through the WS tour even though I was making a decent living at it. At least while on the road.

That said, Al treated me as an equal with respect to the former. Not so much the latter. But at least I was getting paid.

40

Here is an excerpt from a conversation I was having with Max Brody concerning this very topic. I’m sure it will raise some eyebrows. This is his response to me asking him whether he knew of the Al-Paul lawsuit:

in terms of the law suits: in all honesty i had not heard that a law suit had started, but i know that al has wanted to sue paul since shortly after he quit ministry. i’d love to know what you’ve heard…

its a tough subject for me, since i feel that whatever al’s problem is with paul, he has spread those bad feelings toward me and anyone who won’t hate (and i mean HATE) barker along with him. its what got me fired from ministry; i would not SAY that i hate paul, and i helped him with his demo after he quit ministry… to al, i was a “double agent”, and he called me this frequently near the end.

the reason for all the hate is pretty unclear to me. when paul left the band everything was super mellow and both were alright with it. a month or so goes by, and suddenly al is accusing paul and gedda (his wife) of all kinds of shit, from ‘ripping off millions of dollars’ to ‘plotting to kill him and have chris connelly sing for ministry’. it got a bit ridiculous, but who knows how true it is or isn’t. i tried to ignore the problem. i just wanted to stay out of it. but i guess that wasn’t possible, since al wouldn’t let it be that way. i was being forced to take sides, and i wouldn’t do it.

and really, i don’t know who to believe. its easy to just say, well, al’s an ex-junkie and he’s lost it and he’s paranoid. true enough, but he’s also pretty honest and says he’s got proof ‘on paper’, although i have not seen it. al is the most clear-headed that i’ve ever seen now, more than ever probably, as he actually got off the hard drugs. barker is one of the nicest people i’ve ever met, but you never know when it comes to money, and as angie has pointed out to me, there have been no royalty payments from spurburn for the animositisomina record, so who knows, maybe they’re keeping all the money…

then again, maybe there is no money, since the record went overbudget, just like a lot of ministry records. it also didn’t sell all that well, and the tour went overbudget as well. just so you know, i tend to believe paul. but i reserve my opinion for after the suing is over and the facts are out. i really liked al, too, as a person, and while in ministry i thought we were actually friends; we had a lot of good times hanging out…then again i guess maybe we weren’t…at this point i kinda think he uses people and doesn’t like anyone, not even himself. he certainly treats the people closest to him like shit.

from my point of view, al’s got a big problem with paul, and pauls got a big problem with angie, and angies got a big problem with gedda. and after all the shit he’s put up with from him, paul’s got to be completely let down by al. al hates gedda, too, and gedda has had a problem with al for years. she also has a problem with angie. in fact, most people have a problem with angie. a yoko ono? i don’t know if that is a fair statement. maybe a little… i actually got along with her just fine, but i get along with everybody usually. she is certainly good for al–she organizes everything for him! perhaps she’s more of a sharon osborne…it’s a little different from a yoko, right?..keep in mind of course, that paul and gedda used to organize everything before angie came along…

nowdays, i can call paul and gedda and chat, and when barker comes to town he calls me up and we hang out. jorgensen won’t even talk to me or email me back. i tried to patch things up, even drove a few hours one time to meet up with ministry to introduce al and angie to my daughter who was born right after i was canned. i got on the bus (al was the only one on board) and he just wouldn’t talk to me. he grunted a little, and wouldn’t even look at me, no less out the window at my daughter. and that guy was the best man at my wedding…so whatever about al. if he’s got a problem with me, it’s his loss, not mine. i’ve got a job that pays better, and now when i write a song, i actually get credit for it, and i can write however i want. i miss touring, but i am way over being in ministry.

these days, i have little to do with either of em, and i wish the whole issue would just go away. it was a tragic end to an otherwise unbelievable experience for me. i like them both. they are both great people who got into a HUGE argument and i got stuck in the middle. life is strange. at least i’ve got no regrets!