When SHOULD have Al retired Ministry?

Discussion
1

Reading this forum it’s pretty clear to me that “TLS” has left nearly all of us older-school Ministry fans with a bitter taste in our mouths not only regarding the quality of this record as an individual release, but especially as an unfitting final hurrah to what was once one of the most challenging and innovative bands out there.

So my question to you folks is - At what point should have the Ministry franchise been aborted?

I have been postulating several scenarios in my head…

When I was growing up as a teenager in the 90’s I was a die hard Ministry fan. Even though I anxiously awaited the follow up to Psalm 69, I wondered what else they had to say after the Psalm 69 album. “Grace” and “Corrosion” seemed to me like the perfect apacolyptic tracks and I wasn’t sure that the band had much else more to say, knowing they weren’t into the “totured sensitive artist” routine that was so played out in that decade by bands like Nirvana, Smashing Pumpkins and NIN.

I kind of saw “TLORAH”, “MIND” and “69” as genius unholy trinity/trilogy of “industrial metal” that pretty much summed up all that Ministry stood for. If the project would have been killed after Psalm 69 I think Ministry would be as critically and culturally revered (on a cult level rather than mainstream) as the Rolling Stones would have been if they would have quit in 1974 before they became rock dinosaurs.

I must admit that when “Filth Pig” was released I was very disapointed to say the least. The slower, sludgier sound was not what my 16 year old self wanted to hear at the time. I was hoping for Ministry to either experiment more on the electronic/industrial side or release a Psalm 69 II. of sorts. At that stage in my life I would probably have loved to hear albums like “RGB” and “TLS”, which is why I don’t fault the Piss Army kids for their fierce yet naive devotion to anything Al shits out.

“DSOTS” Came four years later and although I appreciated some of the faster songs like “Supermanic Soul” I still felt let down. Over the years PIG and DSOTS have grown on me exponentially, and I now believe that they are some of Ministry’s finer moments, and to call it quits at any time during this period would have been to leave at the height of their creative stage, though it certainly wouldn’t have given us any sense of closure.

I’m not sure how I feel about “Animosty…”. I had fun spinning it at the time and it sure has it’s moments. It even sounds like gold compared to some of the latest offerings, but to me it doesn’t have the right feeling to be a farewell album. Perhaps this album needs time for me to age like Pig and Spoon did.

After much thought I think that “HOTM” would have been the most ideal album to say goodbye with. Yes, Al revisited and rehashed just about all of the formulas and cliches Ministry had become known for over the years, but for some reason it seemed right for the times. Bush was up for re-election and the Iraq war had just begun, so the anti-Bush sentiment seemed relevant and positive at the time, rather than tired and masturbatory like it does now.

I was fine with Al revisiting the industrial thrash sound he perfected for one album, but three albums worth of nothing but the same sound and samples of Bush? Nauseating to say the least. And yes, Barker was gone which sucked, but that too would be fine on the last album, seeing as how Barker was not there in the very beginning.

All in all the album while not great as a whole, had some great moments, but what really closes the deal for me on why I think “HOTM” should have been the last Ministry record is the Worm song.
I have always liked that song, I think it’s a great little ditty that seems to tie together the album and give it an emotional feeling of closure, which I personally think would have been a nice ending to the Ministry franchise.

Well, its over now and like one poster said I too believe Ministry missed out on some opportunities to take their sound into uncharted territories, but hopefully after TLS and the cover album (which I’m just going to pretend doesn’t exist) we can all rest knowing that as low as Al has taken Ministry, he at least has enough sense not to turn into Metallica. It’s time for us as Ministry fans to cherish what was, forgive the present, mourn what could have been and most importantly move on with our musical and personal lives.

Over and out.

=PW=

2

it’s hard to respond to the many, MANY, questions .i think ministry should have called it quits after DSOTS. but perhaps, paul barker’s exit would have been more apropos, since he almost singlehandedly wrote grace and corrosion. who knows why anyone keeps flogging the dead horse. oh, did i say that?
all good to great artists have a heyday. and then not so much and maybe it happens that they become popular again, or relevant again.
what i don’t get about the current ministry and the last record is the notion that political stance is more important than what the songs sound like. huh?

3

i think ministry should have stop after Psalm 69 and the following tours; reshuffle the members a bit (which actually happened) and release pig/spoon/animositisomina as different band. that would’ve made alot of sense to me.

4

I think animositisomnia would have been a perfect end. HOTM isn’t a bad album at all though. It’s just the two after that. But animositisomnia seemed a little lacking, but it was still in the vein of what ministry was. Not this repetitive/cliche thrash bullshit. Guess i’m a little mixed between HOTM and Animositisomnia. Filth Pig is a great album, imo. And Dark Side of the Spoon is a pretty interesting listen as well, which I surely like a good bit. Mainly, it’s the last two albums that really make me want to rant. Other than nu-ministry, I like a good bit. Paul seemed like he was the glue keeping it together though. Al managed to make a good album with HOTM, but when it came time to follow it up, he couldn’t do it, and when it came time to follow that up. Yet again, he couldn’t do it.

5

Funny to speak about disappointment concerning an album (TLS) that is even not released yet… So old-school Ministry fans are all very fond of downloads of leaked albums. I’m maybe even too old-school then… waiting for the release date to finally discover a new album…[cool]

Anyway is it not a bit early to have a final judgment? I remember very well people in this same board (or the previous one… or the one before…) very, very disappointed by HOTM when it came out… Even worse were the reactions here when DSOTS came out. And the bad comments lasted during months and months… And today, even HOTM has some supporters on this board…

So, for me, I will first wait to get a proper released copy of the new album and then after some time (weeks? months?..) I will be able to tell if it is shit or not. Some of my favorite albums took me a very long time until I really could measure the impact they had on me (Pure by Godflesh, Through Silver In Blood by Neurosis, Filth Pig by you know who, Jesu by… guess who… etc.).

On a side note, I’m a bit tired to read always the same kind of things on this board… And don’t ask me to go to the Piss Army, it’s been more then ten years now that I come regularly visit prongs.org, so I have still my habits here…

6

A better question is: why do people feel the need to go into message boards about bands they no longer like and complain about how they no longer like them every single freaking day?

8

No one mentions the Yoko thing, the sobriety thing, and the fact that Al exclusively drinks red wine now.

I like some metal when I’m drunk, you know.

Not saying that he should go back on drugs, by any means!!! I think he’ll live a good and happy life like he deserves, now. I just happen to like the material from when he was stoned, and hanging out with other stoners, better. Sorry.

Damn, I also like the fresh-faced and excited pop singer that came before to these last two. But I’ll deal, and move on.

Edit: I consider Houses to be the last album, with Rantology as a little sampler and a preview of the forthcoming Al Jourgenson Project (Great Satan). I like having Worm, Walrus/Bloodlines as the last Ministry songs.

Maybe, in future pressings, they’ll change the print on Rio and Sucker to say “Ministry & Co-Conspirators” like it does on the cover album? It’s the same freaking people, after all.

9

Funny to speak about disappointment concerning an album (TLS) that is even not released yet

Granted, it’s not exactly right since it’s leaked and not released yet. I’ll give you that one. BUT! The album is finished, and that’s the final album that most have heard (unless Al decides to put out a fake out, which the odds of that are slim to none). People heard the album, premature or not, and they either like it or they don’t. I don’t hate it, but it is a disappointment. So coming on here and telling us “You complain and rant about it…but you downloaded it long before the release date…”. You’re only cherry picking the wrong to justify your means. It leaked, people acquired, and most dislike it. Shit happens.

And I instantly got into Filth Pig and DSOTS, along with the other ones. Few songs I could easily live without, but those are great albums. DSOTS did terrible when it came out, but there’s always the few who actually do like it, and there’s definately a bunch, who later sink it in and it grows on them. It’s common. I was actually a little mixed the first time I heard Twitch, but now it’s become one of my favorite albums of all time. I highly doubt the last two ministry albums to ever be on that list, but I won’t boycott them. There are a few gems there, but as my previous point pointed out; early or not, it’s either a disappointment or it’s not.

If that makes any sense.

10

A TLS promo has been sitting on the counter of a used record shop i hit here for $8 for the past month but i just couldn’t bring myself to buy it. So it shouldn’t be that hard to find if you really wanted a real version early.

12

since he almost singlehandedly wrote grace and corrosion.

You know, I’ve always kind of thought those seemed like his work (as well as Scarecrow and about half of the song Psalm 69). Quite a bit of Dark Side drips of Barker as well. Any more insight into what songs were penned by him?

13

He definitely should have hung it up after Dark Side.

Maybe used the A.I. appearance as a last hurrah, then done a double disc version of Greatest Hits…disc 1 w/ the hits then disc 2 a mixture of new songs, covers, and rarities.

Heck, Warner Bros could’ve even tried to just cash in on Ministry’s last bit of legitimate time in the limelight (A.I.) with a big box set like New Order’s “Retro”…4 or 5 discs containing all the greatest hits, a live disc, and another disc or two of b-sides/rarities.

I think Al’s first real sign of slippage was the huge delay between Psalm and Filth Pig. 4 years was (and is) a long time in the biz, especially in the fast-changing “alternative” scene of the '90s.

14

hey christonabun. have you never heard the reference"Loco Ono"?
classic.

15

Heh, no, but it rings true. [;)]

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[reply]
since he almost singlehandedly wrote grace and corrosion.

You know, I’ve always kind of thought those seemed like his work (as well as Scarecrow and about half of the song Psalm 69). Quite a bit of Dark Side drips of Barker as well. Any more insight into what songs were penned by him?[/reply]

I’ve talked to more than a few parties whom have stated that the biggest Paul influence was on Dark Side. Why does that not surprise me?

17

]I think Al’s first real sign of slippage was the huge delay between Psalm and Filth Pig. 4 years was (and is) a long time in the biz, especially in the fast-changing “alternative” scene of the '90s.

You know it used to bother me that there was pretty much a four year wait between so many of Ministry’s albums but hell, I’ll take that anyday over Jourgensen’s newer trend of quickly rushing out crappy albums every year or year and a half. It’s become worse thatn motherfawkin’ Stephen King!

Allthough you’re right from a buisness standpoint… I remember lots of kids in my high school class that got into Psalm 69 only to quickly lose interest when no new material was forthcoming. I’m pretty glad Al didn’t suceed to much so commercially though, just imagine how much worse he would suck if that were the case!

18

I’ve talked to more than a few parties whom have stated that the biggest Paul influence was on Dark Side. Why does that not surprise me?

Doesn’t surprise me either. Filth Pig as well seems to have a lot of Paul influence. And it makes sense when you consider how strung out on smack Al was at the time (just watch him in Sphinctour). Seems like Paul was carrying that band and in the process it turned out to be some of Ministry’s most creative moments.

Could it be that the “behind the scenes creative force” image that Al tried so hard to project was merely a facade, and that creative force was Paul all along?

Perhaps Al and Paul together had a chemistry together like that of the Beatles, where the combined energy would always be greater than anything they could do separately. I guess that were lucky the two of them were together as long as were, considering Al’s track record with pissing off other musicians.

sigh

19

Personally, I think Al’s work on Twitch was superb but a LOT of that can be attributed to Adrian Sherwood (IMO). And who knows who else was involved in the material of that era in a more behind the scenes fasion?

But it would’ve been interesting to see how Al would’ve progressed onward from Twitch had he not met Paul (or at least begun working with him so closely) and not gotten so strung out through the '90s. Definitely not the “tortured sensitive artist” route but also probably not the “post-apocalyptic, Bush-bashing hillbilly from hell” route either.

And as far as the 4 year gap between '92 and '96, I was just speaking from a biz standpoint. I mean, all it took was one semi-flop of an album (Dark Side) and Warner Bros. totally lost faith in Al & Paul. And if Greatest Fits really was released as a contractual obligation filler, that doesn’t speak too well of Al OR Paul wanting to go out with a bang on what was their final “real” label (as far as Ministry being given a budget for studio production, videos, promos etc). I personally think that Paul shepherded Dark Side through to completion, saw the lukewarm sales & fan response, and said “fuck it” from that point on. “What about us” and all of Animos. have a rushed feel to them that makes me think Paul just phoned in his contributions when it was obvious Al had run out of energy, good ideas, and inspiration…and it became obvious their partnership was on the rocks anyway.

If nothing else, ALL of the post-Dark Side material has (IMO) suffered from a tremendous lack of production values and that has just compounded the problems from the weak lyrics/subject matter/generic metal sound (Paul or not). Whether the piss poor production values are a result of Al’s hearing loss, Al’s laziness, Paul’s absence, diminished studio budgets or a combination of all of the above (my guess), it’s pretty bad when 15 year old material sounds fresher, richer, and better mastered/produced than anything Al’s done in the past half-decade.

20

Personally, I think Al’s work on Twitch was superb but a LOT of that can be attributed to Adrian Sherwood (IMO). And who knows who else was involved in the material of that era in a more behind the scenes fasion?

But it would’ve been interesting to see how Al would’ve progressed onward from Twitch had he not met Paul (or at least begun working with him so closely) and not gotten so strung out through the '90s. Definitely not the “tortured sensitive artist” route but also probably not the “post-apocalyptic, Bush-bashing hillbilly from hell” route either.

And as far as the 4 year gap between '92 and '96, I was just speaking from a biz standpoint. I mean, all it took was one semi-flop of an album (Dark Side) and Warner Bros. totally lost faith in Al & Paul. And if Greatest Fits really was released as a contractual obligation filler, that doesn’t speak too well of Al OR Paul wanting to go out with a bang on what was their final “real” label (as far as Ministry being given a budget for studio production, videos, promos etc). I personally think that Paul shepherded Dark Side through to completion, saw the lukewarm sales & fan response, and said “fuck it” from that point on. “What about us” and all of Animos. have a rushed feel to them that makes me think Paul just phoned in his contributions when it was obvious Al had run out of energy, good ideas, and inspiration…and it became obvious their partnership was on the rocks anyway.

If nothing else, ALL of the post-Dark Side material has (IMO) suffered from a tremendous lack of production values and that has just compounded the problems from the weak lyrics/subject matter/generic metal sound (Paul or not). Whether the piss poor production values are a result of Al’s hearing loss, Al’s laziness, Paul’s absence, diminished studio budgets or a combination of all of the above (my guess), it’s pretty bad when 15 year old material sounds fresher, richer, and better mastered/produced than anything Al’s done in the past half-decade.

Agreed. I think you nailed it pretty well.

21

yup.

22

Dammit! I think you totally just killed this thread! j/k That was very well put.