These people here in the US that are Anti-socialized health care, are anti-America, here’s why:
They don’t want socialized medicine which means they are denying sick people the right to life…
Right there in the Declaration Of Independence, the FIRST right under the inalienable rights is THE RIGHT TO LIFE!
For these idiots to try to keep sick people from getting taken care of because they don’t have enough money means they are ANTI-American, because they are trying to deny these people their inailable right to life.
Their response is always the same old right wing talking points… were turning into a socialist country, we’re gonna be like Russia bla bla bla bla with the fear mongoring…
We already have socialism in this country: free police, free fire department, free education. The Declaration doesn’t give us the right to not have our shit burn. How in favor are they in cutting the fire dept? Hire your own fireman, you don’t want to be supporting socialism do you? We don’t have the right to not have your shit stolen … Hire your own cop(Police should work on denied liberty cases only). You don’t have the right to education, hire your own teacher…
fucking idiots!!!
Late,
grmpysmrf
Free police and free firefighters do not equate socialism! Education is not free in this country either.
Free police and free firefighters do not equate socialism!
Neither does free health care…
Education is not free in this country either.
Public education is free … free in so much that tax dollars pay for it. Police and Firefighters are on the same shelf as education, concerning "free"ness.
Funny how schooling is mandatory and yet healing someone is not. Seems like a waste of the schooling that was mandatory. Why bother with school at all if you are not going to be given your right to life when you become ill? Still the same argument… right to life is being ignored.
You could even put health care on the same level as a wild fire… Fires sometimes don’t just effect one house or a business they could potentially effect hundreds of people and their lives, same with disease… If you can’t get access to healthcare and you’re sick and and going about your regular life you are going around spreading those germs. You’re just like a wild fire burning everyone elses stuff… where’s the fire fighters to put out that fire? Oh that’s right, you gotta pay for it… Even though the Declaration entitles you the right to LIFE…
Late,
grmpysmrf
Late,
grmpysmrf
I love my free health care. (and I’m not Russian). =P
Alot of people have jobs where health insurance is not even offered and outside of some state run programs (my state of Minnesota has one for instance) there is no option for real medical coverage. Getting sick is not always about lifestyle choices. If someone gets hit by a car or gets testicular cancer is that a lifestyle choice? What many people (such as myself) feel is that if we can run a massively bloated defense and medicare/medicaid programs ([url http://www.cbpp.org/4-10-07tax2.htm] exhibit 1) we should be able to offer at least low-cost medical insurance if not outright full coverage as a benefit of citizenship ( like,well, every other western industrialized country). The old argument that some ghetto momma is going to use up all the medical coverage of the hardworking masses is an old scare tactic that has worked frighteningly well for way too long.
Nothing is free.
Besides, as a number of posters have already pointed out, many aspects of our day to day life in America are already socialistic in nature.
I’d like to add one more. The Insurance Industry. It’s always struck my that nearly all insurance is socialistic, and everyone who holds an insurance policy is in some way a socialist.
Thoughts?
I see where people are getting at for free health and education, however, the bigger question is: are Americans willing to pay 45-70% of their income in taxes as Europeans do? Yes, that’s right - for every dollar earned, are you willing to part with 45 - 70 cents of that?
All of a sudden, I don’t hear such a strong support for socialism when this question is brought up 
I’ve lived in those societies and I don’t mind the extra in taxes at all, but with the American lifestyle and culture of capitalism, there would be riots if taxes were raised that much in spite of free health and education.
the self employed have no choice but to buy their own insurance. and unless you make over 60k a year or more you’re not going to be able to afford premiums ranging from 750 a month to 1400 a month. the last insurance policy i had for my family of four had a 5000 dollar deductible, no emergency room coverage unless you had a broken limb and all kinds of other nonsense.
socialism is a word. the way the US takes care of its citizens is embarrassing at best, and i’m not talking about ghetto mommas either. there are plenty of people who work really hard and have either no insurance or shitty insurance.
sadly, i do have a life insurance policy in the event i bite it and my family’s left with the bills.that’s the only policy i currently have.
insurance is a racket. it’s a business like any other. and it’s not regulated like any other, if i recall correctly. i’d be perfectly willing to have a bigger sum taken from pay and be secure with the idea that if my kid breaks his leg, it’s not gonna cost me my savings account.
too many people end up these days in emergency rooms because they can’t be turned away. and who pays for that? the american taxpayer.
and why are so many hospital emergency rooms closing? too expensive to keep open, for one.
i think the percentage of employers who even offer insurance at this point is in the low 60’s. where’s everybody else gonna go?
i’m all for equity in healthcare. that should be the american way. get rid of the socialism label. change the industry. it’s bleeding as we speak.
“I’m Special Ed. And I approve this message.”
i’d be perfectly willing to have a bigger sum taken from pay and be secure with the idea that if my kid breaks his leg, it’s not gonna cost me my savings account.
That’s how I see it. Sure I pay high taxes, as Afra stated. But two years ago when I had to be rushed to the hospital by ambulance with acute appendicitis and had an appendicectomy and left the hospital 2 days later with free meds and no hospital bill, those tax dollars were well spent.
It’s all a crap shoot I guess…
I’d pay high taxes - I’m actually used to that. As long as I get something out of it. I remember going to the hospital in England when I was younger for what could have been a broken wrist (was just fractured). They even gave me money to cab it home.
Here’s an interesting list:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
US is below Morocco and Colombia - wtf! And we pay much more than them in health insurance.
After seeing that, now look at:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html
Insane really. Needs to be fixed.
I met a dude in Mexico that was on vacation from England. Said he broke his leg playing soccer (football, i guess) and couldn’t get treatment for it for almost 6 mos. Said he sat on his ass in his apt. with a script for lortab on unemployment for 6 motherfucking months. He said sports related injuries are considered self inflicted and are put on the back burner.
Now he could have been bullshiting me, but he and his wife spent a decent amount of time with my wife and I when we were drinking and when we weren’t, and I don’t see why he would have lied to me about that.
Oh, yeah! Btw my wife is a nurse. She worked on the cardiac floor at the biggest hospital in Tulsa for about 6 mos. They had “regulars” on that floor that would come in complaining about chest pains to get admitted and get a morphine drip. One of the biggest problems of socialized healthcare would be all of the people going to the doctor anytime they coughed or scratched their arm. Not to mention all of the people hoping to get an prescription to get high from. If it’s free to go to the doctor, why not go everyday until some doctor writes you a lortab/oxycontin/xanex prescription.
This issue, just like everything else in life, is way more complicated than a two party governing system would have you believe.
killface, your wife , as a nurse, gets benefits. i don’t. what’s say you’re self employed?
For those renters out there, the owners’ property taxes are figured into your rent.
More than 1/2 of all bankruptcies are due to the person’s inability to pay their medical bills.
I have fairly decent medical insurance. I’ll let you know how much last week’s adventure to the E.R. and 48.5 hour stay in the hospital for I.V. antibiotics costs me out of pocket. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cellulitis/DS00450
Ok. Let’s start this again… OBVIOUSLY nothing is free, so I’m pretty sure it doesn’t need to be brought up for a bazillionth time that taxes pay for this.
MY argument is that THIS IS NOT SOCIALISM. If it is, then we have to call education, fire and Police (as well as Insurance) Socialist as well, but nobody is ready to do that… and nobody has really come up with a decent reason as to why…
Behold! The liberal Thugacracry [,]where if you don’t support socialism, you’re anti-American and apparently a fucking idiot to boot.
Thank you for the straw man fallacy I was wondering when O’lielly was going to show up.
for the true believers on the board (prologue_67 I’m looking at you) since you made this personal I will address you personally
I can’t believe how feeble your comprehension skills are…
Because I wrote this quickly last night you are going to edit my post and call me an idiot rather than take the substance of it? This is not a road you want to travel down little child, (apparently you don’t know what you’re talking about, how can we believe anything you say when don’t even know when to use commas after introductory phrases? You don’t like grammar Nazis either I would be willing to bet, so don’t pull that shit on me dickhead!)
First off the rights you refer to are unalienable, not inalienable. The Declaration of Independence doesn’t grant anyone rights in the United States of America, the Constitution does.
Are you fucking kidding me??? Our constitution holds the weight that it does because of the DOI… For you to not only suggest, but to outright say that these two documents are not related is asinine!! It shows just how stupid you are!! So, yes, “Idiot to boot.”
The so called rights in the Declaration of Independence are bestowed, or more correctly endowed upon one by the Creator -whom or what ever that may be
Really? So if you die from a toe infection it’s God’s fault and he is reneging on his 1/3 rights he’s bestowed on us??? Simpleton! DOI and the BOR are connected. I’m sure, based on your naive post, you’re a church-goer. Isn’t it up to us to do God’s work?
The 3 rights specifically named in the Declaration - Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness and endowed by said Creator were aimed at the English monarchy of the day. Life is not a right to life as in I’m allowed to live and certainly not “free” healthcare, but rather a life free from torturous interference by the government.
Says who? So you think it’s not our responsibility to take care of each other? You honestly think that’s what the framers had in mind? You are a nut! You have to know that Franklin and Jefferson wrote these documents… you know? Ben Franklin, the guy that came up with those noted socialist programs like, public education and the fire department? You really think that it’s that much of stretch to include health/life? (Oh, yeah, I bet it’s strict interpretation and loose interpretation to serve your whim, another idiotic notion.)
If one is not happy do we have to socialize happiness as well
Are you really this simple?? No wonder the country is in the shape that it is!! Socialized medicine DOES NOT make us a socialist country, which is exactly my point from the start… but again we’ve already diagnosed that your comprehension skills need help.
Curious, do you support the so called “right to choose” when it comes to abortion? If so, how does that square with your argument that the Declaration of Independence grants one a right to life with “free” health care of course?
First off this is beside the argument (non sequitor it is called) but I’ll hold your hand through it. Repeat after me “a fetus is not a human being, these rights are for the ‘living’, not the ‘developing’.”
Don’t know why your post has upset me so, but perhaps it’s because you willingly took me out of context, slapped my grammar rather than approach my content, and wrote simple-minded statements, as well as brought up topics not connected with the subject… I guess I’m just sick of conservative bullshit!
Learn something and come back again! Better spell/edit correctly, ‘cause apparently we’re grading now!!
Late,
grmpysmrf
killface, your wife , as a nurse, gets benefits. i don’t. what’s say you’re self employed?
This brings up a good point: Obama’s health care plan is pure crap. I actually think McCain’s is better (where he gives you a cheque for $5000 to find your own insurance). If you are self employed or are small business, under Obama’s plan, you are out of luck.
Obama’s is crap because it basically puts the responsibility on the business to pay for the health care for all the employees. If the company cannot afford it, or does not pay, the company has to pay a penalty. A general pool of money is then collected to provide mediocre health care for everyone. Now, what if you are unemployed or what if you are a CEO of a company and think “well, instead of paying for the health care for my employees, I think I will pay the penalty, which is cheaper” (actually someone at work brought up this point). So where’s the incentive for small business to pay for the health of the employees? It’s forcing them - but why is it business responsibility?
Oh, yeah! Btw my wife is a nurse. She worked on the cardiac floor at the biggest hospital in Tulsa for about 6 mos. They had “regulars” on that floor that would come in complaining about chest pains to get admitted and get a morphine drip.
You got crazy old people(probably cause they can’t get their meds![:)]) calling the cops daily because “those damn kids are in their yard again” I’m not ready to do away with law enforcement and hire my own cop cause a few take advantage of the system.
One of the biggest problems of socialized healthcare would be all of the people going to the doctor anytime they coughed or scratched their arm.
I’m sure this would slow down as people were able to get treatment and not have to treat health as some special prize.
Your wife’s a nurse? I’d be willing to bet all of this is coming from the Doctors she works for. Doctors stand to lose a considerable amount of $$ from insurance companies (and yet they will still be crazy rich, how does that work? People become doctors to help people, NOT to BECOME rich! if they do it for the $$ they are already in violation of their oath- Before some asshole on this board takes me wildly out of context, I’m not saying doctors have to be completely altruistic but I am saying they should have more of it than the average citizen.)
Not to mention all of the people hoping to get an prescription to get high from. If it’s free to go to the doctor, why not go everyday until some doctor writes you a lortab/oxycontin/xanex prescription.
People like this will be in the system and easy to spot. I’m pretty sure pharmacy Databases can be easily linked. So, if doctor #1 says NO then Doctor #2 will know that Doctor #1 has already said no, or Doctor #2 will know that Doctor #1 as already prescribed… So you don’t have Rush Limbaugh addiction…These are just some thoughts. I don’t claim to have all of the answers to fix all of the problems. Nothing is perfect.
This issue, just like everything else in life, is way more complicated than a two party governing system would have you believe.
I certainly am in agreement with that.
Late,
grmpysmrf
A general pool of money is then collected to provide mediocre health care for everyone.
this is not entirely true. this is called a trust and if your pool is small then what you’re saying is correct but if you have a larger pool your benefits are better AND cheaper because more people are paying in which means you can afford better health care for cheaper because everyone is sharing the cost.
Late,
grmpysmrf
I’d pay high taxes…
I was always under the impression that Europe’s medicine was paid for through the gas pump. that’s why they pay 10 bucks a gallon, cause 7 of it goes straight to health care and their income is not taxed for healthcare. which is why it drives me crazy when our “liberal” media tells us that we are still fine compared to europe when it comes to gas, while neglecting to tell us their prices are high because of the perks they get for that extra money.
Late,
grmpysmrf
I see where people are getting at for free health and education, however, the bigger question is: are Americans willing to pay 45-70% of their income in taxes as Europeans do? Yes, that’s right - for every dollar earned, are you willing to part with 45 - 70 cents of that?
All of a sudden, I don’t hear such a strong support for socialism when this question is brought up
I’ve lived in those societies and I don’t mind the extra in taxes at all, but with the American lifestyle and culture of capitalism, there would be riots if taxes were raised that much in spite of free health and education.
I’m English and pay 20% tax on my earnings. a further 8-10% (can’t remember exactly) goes to national insurance, which pays for benefits such as pensions and incapacity benefits. there are 2 tax bands at the moment, the other being set at 40% once you earn more than about £35k.
if you break your leg for whatever reason you’re treated as soon as possible, within hours. the guy talking about a football injury was probably talking about post treatment physiotherapy type stuff. it probably wasn’t essential… the british like to moan about the NHS.