Nevermind Nickelback, Wayne Coyne

Discussion
1

Here’s what Wayne Coyne of The Flaming Lips had to say regarding the influence of Nirvana’s Nevermind recently…

"It’s better to be overrated than underrated. Besides, it’s not the musicians’ fault Nevermind is overrated - it’s the public’s, or the critics’. But you don’t find yourself ever longing to listen to it, because there were - still are, in fact - so many mediocre bands that sound like it, that you’re constantly experiencing it. I never get out Nevermind and think: what great production, what great songs. Nevermind had a poisonous, pernicious influence. It legitimised suffering. The sainthood of Kurt Cobain overshadows the album: Kurt’s lyrics, his attitudinising and navel-gazing, were hard to separate from the band’s image. You can never just hear the record. For me, Bleach and In Utero are superior. Even the album cover seems cheap: that stupid dollar bill just seems to have been airbrushed in there. If Alice in Chains had done it, we’d have thought it was a joke, but because it was Nirvana we thought it was oh-so-clever. If you think you’re going to hear an utterly original, powerful and freaky record when you put on Nevermind, as a young kid might, Christ you’re going to be disappointed. You’re going to think, “Who is this band that sounds just like Nickelback? What are these drug addicts going on about?”

Do you agree?

I think there’s an element of truth to what he’s saying. And I always thought the cover was a tad stupid. But I disagree somewhat with the ‘timeless’ remark as Cobain really hit a nerve with the status quo and you’d think that hit nerve will resonate on down through the years. It’s certainly intelligent, provocative music and a million miles from what was blanketing the airwaves back in '91. His ‘navel gazing’ and nonsensical rants hit home alot harder than Wayne is prepared to accept. And does it matter that there are X amount of bands in the short time that followed that sounded like bland rehashes. I certainly never found myself thinking…“Well, thank you Local H or Silverchair or Veruca Salt…you’ve just ruined apathetic indie rock for me. Now I’ll never listen to Nevermind ever again…”

The songs…for the most part…were ace. Can you honestly listen to Polly or Something In The Way and NOT be moved???

Sorry Wayne.

Thoughts?

(And please refrain from ‘Flaming Lips are shit, Nirvana are the best’ or ‘Nirvana? Dat shit’s da gay’ type comments. Just intelligent discussion if that’s possible with some of you)

2

But you don’t find yourself ever longing to listen to it, because there were - still are, in fact - so many mediocre bands that sound like it, that you’re constantly experiencing it.

This part here is some sage like wisdom^. He definately has a point about being overrated. the rest of his rant certainly isn’t bullshit. But I can’t help but wonder if his musing was born out of jealousy. Not to mean “Nirvana rules” or whatever. but here, this guy has been hammering away with his band for 20 some odd years and with out question making distinct music and has come probably no where near the commercial success of a lot of these copy bands that have no creativity, comparatively, anyway. At the very least, he has his dignity, which you don’t find much of these days.
Late,
grmpysmrf

3

Nevermind is overrated. So many other bands from the same era and roughly the same style created better, similarly or more moving music and got nowhere near Kurt in terms of fame. Soundgarden, Alice In Chains, TAD, Mudhoney, even Melvins and The Pixies etc. - I don’t really see these bands as being inferior to Nirvana in any way. But maybe that’s just me… I don’t really get what is so special about Nevermind except that it was released seemingly at the best possible time. Bleach and In Utero are nothing special either, lots of filler on these albums.

As for what bands were spawned due to their success - nobody is forcing you to listen to Nickelback, just as nobody is forcing you to listen to Staind (Alice In Chains rip-off) or Static-X (Ministry). Is it really so hard to ignore these bands? Does their mere existence devalue the classics? I don’t really see it this way. If you’re gonna criticize Nirvana, do it by evaluating the band itself and not Nickelback. Thats like saying “Alice Cooper is crap because Marylin Manson exists”. It’s illogical.

4

It legitimised suffering. The sainthood of Kurt Cobain overshadows the album: Kurt’s lyrics, his attitudinising and navel-gazing, were hard to separate from the band’s image.

This is by far the biggest problem with Nirvana. I cannot stand this contrived ‘tortured artist’ schtick, you should see some of the crap they make with his image (one such nauseating comic cover I saw had him kneeling and crying with angel wings on his back… embarassing) And I don’t pity him because he caused it all himself.

I don’t care whether Coyne is saying this out of jealousy simply because he’s right, except for the Nickelback thing. Nevermind would still beat any Nickelback album. Not all kids have such clean cut tastes as he seems to suggest.

5

Well…

18 years later and I’m listening to Nevermind and I’m feeling the same emotions that I felt when I first heard it. That speaks volumes.

Contrived? How so? The band don’t create the hype - the public do. Legitimised suffering? Please. Musicians have vented their angst since the beginning of recorded music. Nothing new there.

And I have NO idea how he draws the Nickelback paralells.

They were a fuckin’ punk band. Listen to Bleach!! It’s a poppier Melvins. A heavier Pixies. Nirvana’s influences were The Stooges, Black Flag, Flipper, Fang, Mission Of Burma, Meat Puppets. What the fuck influenced Nickelback I dread to think.

6

I think that Nirvana had a great pop ear, however their lyrics and overall feel is a total drag. I was just thinking a couple of days ago how depressed and miserable so much 90s pop was. There wasn’t a lot of simple, happy, “feel good” music. It was Nirvana, Alanis Morissette, etc. Everyone people wanted to listen to were bitching, bitching, bitching. I put together a playlist of the music that was popular (to the public and my own tastes) for the time I lived in Bellingham (93-99) and it’s all such a fucking bummer, at best the stuff is terribly ironic at worst it makes you want to slit your wrists.

That said, thanks toNirvana’s natural instinct and Butch Vig’s brilliant production, Nevermind sounds great! it’s big, it’s powerful, it’s got those great guitar tones and yet it’s poppy sheen shimmers and shines like a diamond in sunlight.

7

I prefer In Utero too (and Unplugged, though he doesn’t mention that one).

8

Nevermind had a poisonous, pernicious influence. It legitimised suffering. The sainthood of Kurt Cobain overshadows the album: Kurt’s lyrics, his attitudinising and navel-gazing, were hard to separate from the band’s image. You can never just hear the record

I’m sorry, but Coyne comes across as a giant, furry-lovin’ fuckwit with this statement.

It legitimised suffering? I could think of a thousand things that actually accomplish that. Does this fucktard even know the definition of the word ‘pernicious’? Look it up in the dictionary. Actually, come to think of it, it just sounds like this cunt swallowed a thesaurus and shat out a bunch of statements that can’t help but come across as slightly better…

Seriously… rather than ‘legitimising’ suffering, Nevermind articulates it, arguably in the most musically primitive of terms. And, consider the amount of works of art, poetry, music, etc, dating as far back as to the Ancient Greeks that articulate suffering. Nirvana didn’t glorify it. Noone fucking well did. For fuck’s sake, half the lyrics were cryptic to the extent of not even articulating suffering for half the time… it just didn’t make any sense, and I doubt Kurt even focussed on the lyrics all that much (from what I’ve read).

The whole aesthetic, of ‘attitudinising’ and ‘navel gazing’… I would say was constructed by the media. Has Mr Coyne forgotten the same Kurt Cobain who joked around with being in a wheelchair onstage, was prone to playing ‘bass-ball’ with Grohl’s drumkit, etc etc. I doubt it, as the dude’s still probably stuck with his head in the thesaurus.

Seriously, just read out Coyne’s statement aloud, if you can be stuffed. It’s the sort of statement that you’ll stop reading halfway through because of how much of a wanker you’ll sound like.

I think Mr Coyne should listen to ‘She Don’t Use Jelly’ a couple of times, and eat a plate of his own shit.

I was going to say he should kill himself, but he HAS written some good music with the Lips. But nothing outstanding… seriously, an average Nirvana song is infinitely better than a good Lips one. In my opinion, any way. Sometimes the Lips border on homicide inducing cutesiness that does nothing but rub me the wrong way. They have their moments though, like any other band…

and besides, how the fuck does Nickleback sound anything like Nirvana? Is he for fucking real? Sure, they spawned a bunch of clones, who perhaps diminished the impact and staying power of the initial influence, Nevermind in this case… but that doesn’t diminish it’s overall value and quality. Actually, to be honest, I hate that mentality, and I take back what I said… why the fuck should external factors or consequences of an artist’s success demean anything they’ve done prior to it? Why should it lose it’s impact?

Nope. Wayne Coyne, massive fail on his part for this statement. However, he was right about Bleach and In Utero being infinitely better

Peligro, if you hate me after this, so be it. [laugh]

9

Amlux’s question:

What the fuck influenced Nickelback I dread to think.

Evil Dildo’s answer:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

10

The more I think about the more I think that even though Nirvana were the harbinger for miserable sad pop music, the style would have happened without their influence. The 1990s were destined for depressing pop music in the same way that we were destined for distrust and paranoia (see X-Files). Personally I hope neither are trends to soon repeat even though I liked them at the time.

11

In my world, the more depressive the music, the better. Can’t stand happiness and enthusiasm at all!

12

I was going to say he should kill himself, but he HAS written some good music with the Lips. But nothing outstanding… seriously, an average Nirvana song is infinitely better than a good Lips one.

Oh dear. You should spend a little more time listening to the Lips…'cos wow they’ve written their fair share of introspective motherfuckers. Cutesy and attention seeking they may be, but the music speaks for itself. Ruminations about life, death and our place in the universe - all that and songs about jelly as a sexual lubricant. If Dali were alive he’d be front row right and centre, Billy Joe.

And dare I mention The Soft Bulletin? Infinitely - and I stress INFINITELY - better than anything Cobain the mopey ol fucker ever penned. But then I don’t blame Cobain for that. Few artists are capable of reaching the dizzying Floydian Pet Sounds On E hights of that magnum opus.

Stephen O’Malley on the other hand…now there’s a navel gazing whining bookworm for ya!! Damn graphic artists these days. Strum a few down tuned D chords and suddenly they’re the hippest doom exponents Wire magazine ever jizzed over.

[:)]

In my opinion, any way. Sometimes the Lips border on homicide inducing cutesiness that does nothing but rub me the wrong way. They have their moments though, like any other band…

Is it the furry animal costumes that have you so perplexed, O Padawan?

Nope. Wayne Coyne, massive fail on his part for this statement. However, he was right about Bleach and In Utero being infinitely better

What about Incesticide? Incesticide. I like saying that word. Just rolls off the ol tongue it does. I need to get me some Incesticide. Hell, I need to get me a t-shirt made up with INCESTICIDE scrawled across it in block capitals.

Peligro, if you hate me after this, so be it. [laugh]

No. I implore you to speak openly on any number of subjects. Soon we shall sip lattes in the sunny Chapel Street laneways and discuss our hatred of Kevin Rudd and why Aussies as a whole are so taken with this pernicious arrogant puss fuck fraud.

13

Oh god…please. There’s better stuff to consider than what Flips put out post 1997. Their homestead records releases are where its at. Priest Driven Ambulance is imo miles ahead of Soft Bulletin. Maybe more than yoshimi, but that’s relative.

14

I remember playing Priest Driven Ambulance alot in college. This was around the time that The Lips hit it big with She Don’t Use Jelly. Then I forgot about them for years. It wasn’t until Soft Bulletin came out that I picked up on where I left off with them. I didn’t listen to them once in three years - from 95 to 98.

Honestly I prefer everything post Bulletin. Early stuff is great but a little too messy and schizo. Too much nonsense bubblegum hippy bullshit noodling in the early records. Bulletin is where they got ‘serious’.

A friend of mine has a mother who works as a care nurse - caring for people who are terminally ill. She has been known to play them The Soft Bulletin in it’s entirety to ease their passage into death - such is the beauty of that incredible album.

15

I can certainly see what Wayne is trying to express, and I’d say my agreement with his statements is about 50/50.

First off, Nevermind did have great songs, at least from a pop standpoint. I disagree with him there. I do agree with him however about the production. Cobain himself once stated that Nevermind sounded more like a Motley Crue record than a punk rock record, and from a production standpoint that is certainly true. This is the only way I could understand a comparison to Nickelback would be in the production department, but to even begin to compare Nirvana and Nickelback on artistic merits is just insane.

Nirvana did, however unintentionally, usher in the era of the depressed, flannel-clad junkie musician aesthetic, and it became after a while very hard to separate the music from the image, a trap Cobain was unquestionably aware of and tried to escape, even to the extent of parody (which is very apparent on a few tracks of In Utero.

Unfortunately instead of growing as a musician and re-inventing himself, Cobaine chose suicide, and with this action forever put himself in the “legendary tortured artistic soul” category. This unfortunately puts a lot of baggage on the music and makes the music harder to appreciate on it’s own merits, which is a damn shame IMO, as Cobain did create some memorable music. I just wish I could enjoy it without the cult of personality surrounding the man.

16

I do agree with him however about the production. Cobain himself once stated that Nevermind sounded more like a Motley Crue record than a punk rock record, and from a production standpoint that is certainly true.

I’ve read where Cobain had said this before but still it makes me ask, Does the band have no control over who produces their album? Does the band have no say over mixing levels and what not? I would think that they do, which makes Cobain responsible for that sound cause he signed off on it.

This is the only way I could understand a comparison to Nickelback would be in the production department, but to even begin to compare Nirvana and Nickelback on artistic merits is just insane.

This is what I thought he meant too.
Late,
grmpysmrf

17

Oh dear. You should spend a little more time listening to the Lips…'cos wow they’ve written their fair share of introspective motherfuckers. Cutesy and attention seeking they may be, but the music speaks for itself. Ruminations about life, death and our place in the universe - all that and songs about jelly as a sexual lubricant. If Dali were alive he’d be front row right and centre, Billy Joe.

Peligro, I’m open minded. Reading over my post… I daresay I come across as this angry little cunt. Poor form, Dildo, poor, poor form. Nonetheless, would love it if you would trust me enough to lend me a couple of albums, because I’m an impoverished student with a piss-weak download cap.

Belligerent as my post was, I stated that I did like some of the Lips’ output; I just happen to like Nirvana more… doesn’t matter how lush the production is, or how complex the songs are; and the Lips’ far exceed Cobain Inc. in these respects… but I like Nirvana’s songs more. No wonder I’m this moody fucker… I was listening to them at four. Thanks mum, for leaving that cassette of Live in New York lying around because you didn’t like it [:)].

Stephen O’Malley on the other hand…now there’s a navel gazing whining bookworm for ya!! Damn graphic artists these days. Strum a few down tuned D chords and suddenly they’re the hippest doom exponents Wire magazine ever jizzed over.

While I know yer being a funny cunt [laugh], I found it interesting how he was quite the opposite to the image he’s perceived as having by the intellectual high/mono brow crowd that masturbates monthly over the Wire (I’m guilty of that, to an extent) when I met him.

Is it the furry animal costumes that have you so perplexed, O Padawan?

That, amongst other things… the obsession with Yoshimi P-Wee? Tho, that being said, she is a mad cunt worthy of said affection. Kudos to her and them.

I prefer Sophie Ellis Bextor because I am a weak dog.

Incesticide.

Hit and miss, overrated in the wake of Nevermind in my opinion.

I implore you to speak openly on any number of subjects. Soon we shall sip lattes in the sunny Chapel Street laneways and discuss our hatred of Kevin Rudd and why Aussies as a whole are so taken with this pernicious arrogant puss fuck fraud.

I shall, but it’s for this reason I have as many associates that I would class as closer than blood, and just as many who are out for my blood. And no way would you ever see me in Chapel St. Fuck, I don’t even have a favoured street given I’m a fucking hermit… I’ll let you call on that one, just as long as it’s not Commercial Road. The sort of street you’ll drop ya wallet and be kickin it down the street for the rest of the night…

As for K. Rudd, much as a populist twat he is full of bullshit rhetoric, I’m pretty happy with the economic state of the nation. Has done a great job, as far as I’m concerned. Has presented far better cases for the stimulus packages, et al, in comparison to the lack of alternatives provided by the Liberals. Quote Julie Bishop when asked her opinions on what to do about the GFCrisis (when treasurer); ‘we’ll just have to sit… and wait’. GOLD.
Don’t get me wrong; I don’t affiliate with any political parties as a whole… for example, I wish death on Bracks, Brumby, Hulls, and the rest of state Labor, for a litany of reasons.

A friend of mine has a mother who works as a care nurse - caring for people who are terminally ill. She has been known to play them The Soft Bulletin in it’s entirety to ease their passage into death

That actually sounds amazing. Fuck it. I might just buy this on a gamble.

Unfortunately instead of growing as a musician and re-inventing himself, Cobaine chose suicide, and with this action forever put himself in the “legendary tortured artistic soul” category.

I don’t think that was the least of his considerations when he decided to put a shotgun to his head. Seriously… [:/]
Anyway… I’ve always wondered why Ian Curtis was deified to the same extent… thereby evading the criticism that has been aimed in Cobain’s direction post-shotgun-blammo.