Ministry-like career re-assessments

Hey gang -

I thought the Texan might like to include a little info on this topic in his new book, plus it’s just an amusing topic to sink one’s claws into.

We all know at least some version of the story about Al Jourgensen’s awkward transformation from smooth dance-pop sensation to cyber-biker industrial werewolf. But is his situation in the music industry truly unique? Aren’t there at least a couple more similar stories that haven’t been as highly publicized?

I’d say one candidate for this transformation might be the membership of ‘Images in Vogue’ who also cut their teeth on synth pop and then went on to form two of the more abrasive bands in the electronic music galaxy (Skinny Puppy and Numb).

Or, for a “reverse Ministry,” you could do worse than SPK. One minute they’re releasing some of the most corrosively violent records known to man, inspired by the terrorist-affiliated “socialist patients’ collective” with their motto of “make mental illness into a weapon.” Next thing you know, they are a fairly harmless Euro-dance combo.

Seriously, take a look at the cold intellectual analysis of the liner notes for [url http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=76548]‘Leichenschrei’, then compare them with [url https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPBpYIZC9PM]this silliness, and tell me that isn’t an awkward career re-assessment…

Scott Walker.

A Finnish band called The Rasmus that my girlfriend listened to completely changed their tone and image about halfway through their career.

1990s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSLdO_3D4To
2000s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIIsBRy0f_Y

Joy Division -> New Order ?

SPK had the biggest switch for real

We all know at least some version of the story about Al Jourgensen’s awkward transformation from smooth dance-pop sensation to cyber-biker industrial werewolf. But is his situation in the music industry truly unique? Aren’t there at least a couple more similar stories that haven’t been as highly publicized?

The book should most definitely contain this information. The evolutionary material Ministry released from 1980-1990 is fascinating. A lot of bands slowly changed their sound over the years, but not as much as Ministry in its first decade.

Al has a valid point when it comes to With Sympathy. Ministry had an edgier sound with varying topics/styles. Arista wanted to take just the funk/synth pop side of Ministry and focus on typical topics such as relationships and getting funky. They didn’t want stuff like I’m Falling, Overkill, Cold Life or Same Old Madness.

Al has detested this album for years and continues to do so. However, Psalm 69 is more or less a catchier version of The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste (with Jesus Built My Hotrod being an exception). When Filth Pig and Dark Side failed to catch an audience like Psalm 69, Al has been obsessed with making albums that are “similar and/or “harder” and/or “faster” and/or “better” than Psalm 69.”

So you have to ask:

Was Al constantly changing his sound to find something that would stick and earn him the most cash?

Or did he have some radical idea that he can do whatever he wants under the same flagship name?

That being said, I find Psalm 69 to be the black sheep of the 80s/90s catalog. It’s the only repeat in the classic catalog and I actually find the album more commercial and catchier than With Sympathy.

The constant re-hash of material post Dark Side is more sell out/cringeworthy than anything he did during the Synth Pop years.

Al has detested this album for years and continues to do so. However, Psalm 69 is more or less a catchier version of The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste (with Jesus Built My Hotrod being an exception). When Filth Pig and Dark Side failed to catch an audience like Psalm 69, Al has been obsessed with making albums that are “similar and/or “harder” and/or “faster” and/or “better” than Psalm 69.”

A lot of people have commented on how Al’s New Wave training carried over into his more metallic stuff, in ways that he probably wasn’t consciously aware of…see that “Decibel” article in which someone admits the “new wave chorus” was behind much of the success of “…Mind.”

I also remember looking at a Chicago Tribune (I think?) preview of the ‘Filth Pig’ tour which made a convincing point that album tracks like “Lava” had the same structure as “Everyday is Halloween.”

So you have to ask:

Was Al constantly changing his sound to find something that would stick and earn him the most cash?

Or did he have some radical idea that he can do whatever he wants under the same flagship name?

Sadly, while I think that both of those may be true, he’s never going to admit to either of those things being a factor - the narrative about him fighting back against the establishment’s ‘uses’ for him is just sexier for the kind of transformation he eventually made.

Again, while the stylistic re-vamp itself isn’t an anomaly, I think the Ministry story is unique just in the way Al explained these changes. When groups like SPK or Cabaret Voltaire went a little more ‘commercial’ (check out the change in vibe from “Voice of America” to “Groovy, Laidback and Nasty”), I don’t recall them ever going on lengthy campaigns to explain away their decisions or to apologize for anything.

A lot of people have commented on how Al’s New Wave training carried over into his more metallic stuff, in ways that he probably wasn’t consciously aware of…see that “Decibel” article in which someone admits the “new wave chorus” was behind much of the success of “…Mind.”

I also remember looking at a Chicago Tribune (I think?) preview of the ‘Filth Pig’ tour which made a convincing point that album tracks like “Lava” had the same structure as “Everyday is Halloween.”

That’s why I absolutely adore Filth Pig and Dark Side. Filth Pig is what 1982 Ministry would sound like, if they traded in the synths for Grungy guitars and distortion boxes. The song structures are practically identical. I mentioned this to other prongers before and most thought I was crazy.

Dark Side brings back some of the funkyness and experimental aspects.

Relapse and From Beer To Eternity do flirt with the early sound a bit.

The Bush Trilogy is a hard listen and should have been one album instead of three. There is material that I like, it’s just not a good period in my opinion.

That being said, I find Psalm 69 to be the black sheep of the 80s/90s catalog. It’s the only repeat in the classic catalog and I actually find the album more commercial and catchier than With Sympathy.

It has catchy singles, but it was also the era when Ministry was making tracks like “Grace” and “Fucked”, that were more abrasive and industrial than possibly anything Ministry had done previously.

I’m definitely going to tackle the Ministry evolution, pre-Psalm 69.

I would love to pin-point the moment in time that Al decided to buck the With Sympathy image and turn into a biker dude.

I’ve seen previous posts about that YouTube video from 1984 (I think); where Al looks completely joyous as he leads the crowd through “Work for Love.” And I’ve also come across concert reviews from the period that indicate he was a pain in the ass, kicking trash off the stage into the fans, etc.

Of course, in the same video he has a Front 242 sticker on his guitar, foreshadowing the sounds on Twitch.

But, seriously, what pushed Al over-the-top? Was there an individual who inspired him? Burroughs? Leary? Indeed, I suspect his fascination with Burroughs (a mostly homosexual) has a lot to do with him confessing giving BJ’s. He definitely likes the idea that he’s more depraved than anyone else.

As for ‘Psalm 69’ being a catchy record? I don’t hear that so much. “N.W.O” completely lacks a chorus, and seriously, “Corrosion” and “Grace?” I’ll admit 'Hotrod" and ‘Just One Fix’ leaning toward “catchy.” But, the overall album, I have difficulty subscribing to the idea that it’s “catchy.”

I got one - Dio. He started out as a doo-wop singer in the '50s.

But, seriously, what pushed Al over-the-top? Was there an individual who inspired him? Burroughs? Leary? Indeed, I suspect his fascination with Burroughs (a mostly homosexual) has a lot to do with him confessing giving BJ’s. He definitely likes the idea that he’s more depraved than anyone else.

I’m still not sure how the Burroughs connection came about - Al would have definitely been aware of him early on, since WSB was a well-established influence on the 1st wave of industrial culture, but I don’t know who got the two together. It probably wasn’t Burroughs himself who reached out, since he never really seemed to seek out acolytes and was in fact pretty dismissive of some pop stars who cited him as an influence (read the book ‘Literary Outlaw’ for his hilarious panning of Lou Reed and “Waiting for the Man.”)

The people behind the cyberpunk-y ‘Mondo 2000’ magazine were big backers of Leary and Burroughs, and definitely helped with popularizing this idea that there’s a continuity between them and 80s-90s industrial music like Skinny Puppy and Ministry. To what degree they facilitated some kind of interest on Al’s part, though, I’m also not sure.

halloween has same structure as lava? well, i mean, if you have your standard verse/chorus/bridge, of course it all would be “samey” in structure, no?

there’s a theory that barker had alot to contribute to the ‘ugly’ sound of filth pig and dark side. his bass sound was never “clean” until some tracks on animositisomina - it was always fx’d with various forms of distortions, which just added the “venom” to the sound.

as for al being pushed over the top, etc in the arista era, i think even in that 1983 interview with richard skinner - even then he actually states that “here we go” was a song about him wanting to defeat his record company, so i guess he quickly realised that it’s not so great?

all that talk from al that they made him into this faggy cheesy new wave pop guy and that they changed the music - well yea ok, if you are in new wave/synth pop band or whatever it was, image is kind of important, that’s the rules, he looked no more faggy in that special affect live video too. i guess arista “wussified” him or some shit.

as for changing the music, yeah maybe. listening to a few of 1982 boots, before they signed to arista and got the record deal for an album, they played like half of that album that wasnt even released yet.

at the same time they had some darker songs for sure (“never asked for nothing”), but also some completely cheesy (“love change”, “so-so life” anyone?) - i don’t think those were written “by arista staff with producers”. and yeah even “with sympathy” songs sounded more raw and ‘edgier’ live - because they were polished for the album.

and anyway… main argument - you are all familiar with the original 1982 same old madness video and song, right? yeah it doesn’t have that specific sugar coat of with sympathy, but it’s still freakin’ gay as fuck!!!

ok one video aint much to base judgement on, but that was going to be their next single, on wax trax no less - not arista.

i thnk the most prominent period where al was applying all the stuff he learned at arista from making with sympathy was 1984-1987, shame some songs still arent released in a good quality (if the studio versions even exist, we don’t know that).

As for ‘Psalm 69’ being a catchy record? I don’t hear that so much. “N.W.O” completely lacks a chorus, and seriously, “Corrosion” and “Grace?” I’ll admit 'Hotrod" and ‘Just One Fix’ leaning toward “catchy.” But, the overall album, I have difficulty subscribing to the idea that it’s “catchy.”

NWO’s great because it just one riff basicaly on a halftone interval - it just hypnotizes you. same thing for Scarecrow - and it drags on so long, it works. alot of ministry songs are very repetetive with not much variation or stuff goin’ on apart from all the sfx and samples - i think best example of that would be the CD version of Revco’s “Get Down” - it just puts you in a trance for 13 minutes and then whooooop its suddenly over and you’re like “whoaaa” and wake up.

i guess psalm69 was released at the right time. similarly reznor had mega success 2 years later with downward spiral, clearly it was time for the “industrial metal” to completely enter the mainstream. i can hear so much psalm69 and so much tiny ministry elements in nin’s “broken” and “tds”.

I would love to pin-point the moment in time that Al decided to buck the With Sympathy image and turn into a biker dude.

Re-read Chris Connelly’s book- some point early in their collaboration (1987?), Chris describes the day Al walked into the studio with his new, tougher image, and they laughed at him for it.

I’m still not sure how the Burroughs connection came about - Al would have definitely been aware of him early on, since WSB was a well-established influence on the 1st wave of industrial culture, but I don’t know who got the two together. It probably wasn’t Burroughs himself who reached out, since he never really seemed to seek out acolytes and was in fact pretty dismissive of some pop stars who cited him as an influence (read the book ‘Literary Outlaw’ for his hilarious panning of Lou Reed and “Waiting for the Man.”)

This is covered somewhat in the Psalm 69 chapter of Al’s book. They had written “Just One Fix” and Al wanted to add some Burroughs samples to it, but Warner Bros. was afraid they would be sued, and it delayed the album (and the album mix does lack the Burroughs samples). Al mentioned this in an interview, Burroughs’ manager saw it, and invited Ministry to come collaborate with Burroughs for the extended mix. They had not met prior to that.

Slam Bamboo anyone??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-rwSEO8U1k

Oh dear.

[:/]

a person that comes to mind is Brian Eno…from cross dressing, makeup wearing glam rocker to short haired, turtle neck wearing ambient music maker.

he’s cool either way in my book.

Beastie boys. punk act to rappers

^^ good one there

Rick Rubin…hip hop producer to…Santa Claus?

[reply]I would love to pin-point the moment in time that Al decided to buck the With Sympathy image and turn into a biker dude.

Re-read Chris Connelly’s book- some point early in their collaboration (1987?), Chris describes the day Al walked into the studio with his new, tougher image, and they laughed at him for it.[/reply]

Well, not so much the moment in time as much as why. I know he didnt know Burroughs at that point, however he was hip to JG Ballard (i.e. PTP, Programming the Psychodrill is a reference to his work) and just wonder if he was reading some of Burroughs works like ‘Junky’ or ‘Queer’ and said to himself “I like drugs, I’m going off the deep end.” I think Al loved the idea of his work or music and his lifestyle being connected, hence the hard partying recording sessions and other such shenanigans.

In another note, the Beasties did make a conversion, however “Check Your Head” and “Ill Communication” have their share of hardcore punk songs.