Jesus/God door to door sales people

I’m with hacksaw and gunnar.

I’ve actually engaged in some pretty decent convos with them. One time at a park they came up to me and I chatted with one guy for about 40 mins. I told him my views were very different, and we talked about our stances on things. Not once did he try to “convert” me. We just kept bouncing ideas and concepts off each other, with neither of us claiming to be right.

Happened a few other times when they’ve come to my door- one time I took a Buddisht approach and even did a few parallels between the two religions, another time I did a Native American spirituality type approach, another, an atheist approach.

Never once have they been rude, or tried to force anything upon me. Sure, they’ve given me magazines saying they suggest I read it- but it’s just that, a suggestion.

Don’t have it in me to be rude or sarcastic to harmless people. Not my nature anymore.

And yeah, there are a good number of so-called Christian jerks and whackos that use or have used the name of God in weird twisted ways (Westboro Baptist, Crusades, whatever).

I would argue, far more do more damage than good. We’ll have to wait for pat Robertson to die, I think to really find out the magnitude of destruction that man wrought on society.

There’s also a large number of Christians or other groups that are building orphanages, saving children from the sex trade, volunteering medical services for less fortunate, you name it.

Oh, you mean like in Los Angeles where the catholic church kicked a bunch of homeless people off of a piece of land the church bought from the city so they could build a 6 million dollar cathedral?? Very Christian of them.

When it comes to judging people I’ll take issue with their ACTIONS, not their beliefs.

inaction is also an action by default. So if they sit idly by in a group or association while others in that group do these things in their name and they don’t say/do anything to disassociate themselves with that group or stop said action how is that any different from them participating? at the very least it’s giving strength/support to those that carry these things out.

I don’t think that ALL religious people are sexist, racist, ignorant schmucks anymore than I think all fans of or performers of blackmetal are church-burning, murdering brain eaters.

Well, first off give black metal fans a couple thousand years to get their image down and we’ll see where they stand. second while most religious probably wouldn’t see themselves as sexist, racist, etc belonging to groups that actively promote that agenda doesn’t exactly clear them from being that now does it?
Late,
grmpysmrf

I was expecting that to be a complete burn. But it was actually well written.

Don’t have it in me to be rude or sarcastic to harmless people. Not my nature anymore.

I argue these people aren’t harmless when they are so into religion they will knock on strangers’ doors about it.
Late,
grmpysmrf

I was expecting that to be a complete burn. But it was actually well written.

which?
?? Dude? have you been hanging out on prongs all night waiting for my reply?
I do that sometimes [blush]

Late,
grmpysmrf

Well, first off give black metal fans a couple thousand years to get their image down and we’ll see where they stand.

I’m sure in a couple of thousand years there will be no such thing as Black Metal.

[reply]
Well, first off give black metal fans a couple thousand years to get their image down and we’ll see where they stand.

I’m sure in a couple of thousand years there will be no such thing as Black Metal.[/reply]
yeah kinda my point. Saying that it’s a poor comparison.
Late,
grmpysmrf

[reply]Don’t have it in me to be rude or sarcastic to harmless people. Not my nature anymore.

I argue these people aren’t harmless when they are so into religion they will knock on strangers’ doors about it.
Late,
grmpysmrf[/reply]

I personally don’t mind it, because I’m always up for that type of discussion, 24/7 (as evidenced now, as it’s way past my bedtime haha!) . and if I do happen to be busy when they ring my doorbell, I apologize for not being able to engage in conversation but thank them for their time and wish them luck. They do the same in return.

I see what you mean though. I agree with many things you say as well.

heck, I enjoy these type of discussions, I wouldn’t mind if other religious people did the same…Buddhists, Muslim, Hindu, etc. just because I enjoy discussing, learning, absorbing, discarding knowledge. don’t have to agree with much or any of what they say, but I still don’t mind hearing them out. and if they don’t like or care for what I say- that’s fine too. that’s their opinion, and they are being judgmental (which makes them hypocritical, since to them God is the only judge) …but that’s on them.

im not going to do a point by point and blow up the thread with another massive post, but look, what you are saying is just not in line with how i feel.

yeah, some Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, yadda yadda yaddas are jerks. some of them are the ones that you seem to have nothing but bile towards. some also hand out needles in innercity areas to make sure that AIDS isnt spread. some try to curb the push of starvation and poverty. some build houses and shelters for those in need. some are gay, some are straight, some are black and some are white. people are people, and as long as they arent hurting anyone i dont fucking care what they do.

now, if a group of JWs come to your door to talk with you, maybe those same two standing there are about to go back home and pray that all the faggots burn in hell. maybe they will go over to the church and make women dress one way or not. maybe. but in the moment they are on your front porch, what they are doing is trying to help you, in their own, possibly misguided way.

GOOD FOR THEM.

im a vegan. i also dedicate an hour (at least) every day to meditation and reflection. these things are VERY important to me. you could even say there is a religious element to them. now, just because you eat meat, or you eat eggs, that doesnt matter to me. i dont hate my partner for drinking milk at their job (they own a coffee shop) it wouldnt be right for me to feel that way. do i think that milk production in America is disgusting and against everything an enlightened society should stand for? yeah, PERSONALLY. but that is my own belief, and not everyone had to agree with me. im ok with that.

it isnt an ostrich thing, it isnt a moron thing, it isnt a coward thing. it isnt a NIMBY thing. what i am saying is that people pray in a million different ways. they are allowed to, and i encourage everyone to share their spirituality, even if i dont care for it. when i see it hurting someone, THEN i will step up. but when someone is on my door telling me about the beauties of their god, that isnt the time or the place for it.

[reply]
Me, “you believe that some sky wizard picked up a bunch of dirt fashioned a person from it and brought it to life and then he took a rib from that dirt man and created a woman from it… that is magic. Have a good day.”

My fiance believes in that shit.

I kid you not.

My “non beliefs” often result late at night with her crying into her pillow and me comforting her with the words “you have to understand, baby, that’s just how I feel on the subject”.
[/reply]
what’s her religion’s stance on premarital sex and living in sin with her fiance? I would think the stance would be of disapproval. ask her how come those are ok to overlook but not the concerns that you have?

Made even worse by the fact that the pastor from her church refuses to marry us because I am a non believer and speak out against Christian “brainwashing” tactics.

peligro, you just raised a notch on the cool meter! btw, isn’t god all about love? who is that pastor to stand in the way of love?

The result - more tears!

that part sucks!
one of you is going to have to break. who’s more staunch you and non believing or her and her beliefs? if you’re about equal you both have a very tough road ahead. Perhaps you can point out the controlling nature of the pastor to help her see how phony he is. “Would Jesus marry us? Where does this pastor get off second guessing Jesus by telling us no?”

Late,
grmpysmrf

heck, I enjoy these type of discussions,

me too brother, me too!

I wouldn’t mind if other religious people did the same…

yeah, I wouldn’t either but I don’t get that where I live. I have some militant hypocritical bastards in my region.
Late.
grmpysmrf

[reply]heck, I enjoy these type of discussions,

me too brother, me too!

I wouldn’t mind if other religious people did the same…

yeah, I wouldn’t either but I don’t get that where I live. I have some militant hypocritical bastards in my region.
Late.
grmpysmrf[/reply]

I hear ya man. I guess that’s the good thing living in the NYC area- it’s so diverse in everything, and for the most part, no one seems to mind. keywords are for the most part of course.

im not going to do a point by point and blow up the thread with another massive post,

Rude!! everyone is interested, no one more so than me. like soul driver wrote… I enjoy these conversations don’t rob us of the points you have to make

but look, what you are saying is just not in line with how i feel.

there in lies the difference. you feel these things. I think these things

yeah, some Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, yadda yadda yaddas are jerks. some of them are the ones that you seem to have nothing but bile towards.

I’d say the vast majority of what I’ve come across is this and would argue that barely some are the ones you describe in your next block of text… although I’ve never heard of religious organizations handing out needles… that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, but that clearly the exception and not the norm. especially when multiple denominations are cutting off access to condoms and birth control in the poorer nations because it’s not in line with the doctrine they have forced upon the nation.

some also hand out needles in innercity areas to make sure that AIDS isnt spread. some try to curb the push of starvation and poverty. some build houses and shelters for those in need. some are gay, some are straight, some are black and some are white. people are people, and as long as they arent hurting anyone i dont fucking care what they do.

but this seems to be where you disconnect. Most of the time they are hurting someone. all of these examples you cite are exceptions to the rule and not the norm. openly gay catholic priest, not that I’ve heard. Catholic priests that are women? female witnesses holding prominent posts within the church? not on your life!
now if your point is that while on my porch they are not hurting anyone, I still disagree… murderers don’t kill people every second of the day, but they are still bad people, none the less

now, if a group of JWs come to your door to talk with you, maybe those same two standing there are about to go back home and pray that all the faggots burn in hell. maybe they will go over to the church and make women dress one way or not. maybe. but in the moment they are on your front porch, what they are doing is trying to help you, in their own, possibly misguided way.

trying to help me? trying to help me help them in praying that all faggots burn in hell! That is destructive. And in that moment that they are on my porch they don’t have to be actively hurting someone in order to be hurting people… So basically, you’re point is Joseph mengele was only a bad person when he was cutting into people? You are wrong, sir!

GOOD FOR THEM.

not really.

im a vegan. i also dedicated an hour (at least) every day to meditation and reflection. these things are VERY important to me. you could even say there is a religious element to them.

you probably mean sacred and not religious, your vegan stance is not ruining the lives of others and your not knocking on doors trying to convert others to help you ruin more lives. not religious!

now, just because you eat meat, or you eat eggs, that doesnt matter to me. i dont hate my partner for drinking milk at their job (they own a coffee shop) it wouldnt be right for me to feel that way. do i think that milk production in America is disgusting and against everything an enlightened society should stand for? yeah, PERSONALLY. but that is my own belief, and not everyone had to agree with me. im ok with that.

which is why it’s not a religion, and your not knocking on doors to get people to join you.

it isnt an ostrich thing, it isnt a moron thing, it isnt a coward thing. it isnt a NIMBY thing. what i am saying is that people pray in a million different ways.

let them pray. we’re not talking about praying. we’re talking about joining their club!

they are allowed to, and i encourage everyone to share their spirituality, even if i dont care for it.

yeah but not on my porch.

when i see it hurting someone, THEN i will step up. but when someone is on my door telling me about the beauties of their god, that isnt the time or the place for it.

it’s totally the time and place for it because the beauties of their god are false and are only there to cover the atrocities of their actions. that doesn’t necessarily mean their specific actions but the actions of their organization that they endorse.
Late,
grmpysmrf

Jehovas Witnesess are some hardcore motherfuckers.

They live a very strict life, you could say a censored life. I think it’s an archaic way of living, that kind of dedication takes discipline I guess. My parents were witnesses for a few years before I was born, they never said much about it, but I get the feeling they regretted it. But hey religion is there if you need it, some people seek religion for self-preservation reasons and skip the bs,

I should say that one of my best friends is a JW. however, she isn’t too strict about it, which I find interesting because I thought they were one of the most strict. she goes out and celebrates holidays, her birthdays etc. her mother is very strict, but doesn’t seem to mind her daugther’s actions. her mother asked me to go to one of their services one time, which I did. I did it out of my own interest. it was a bit different from going to churches in other Christian denominations, which I’ve been to different ones. I haven’t and don’t plan on going back (same thing with the other churches I’ve been to in the past) . I do plan to take a trip to a Buddhist temple out in New York State though, and may compare that with other ones I come across.

two of my old co-workers were JWs as well, and they seemed a bit more strict (they were older women) but still not extreme about it (they had a drink every now and then even though that’s essentially forbidden) .

My fiance believes in that shit.

I kid you not.

My “non beliefs” often result late at night with her crying into her pillow and me comforting her with the words “you have to understand, baby, that’s just how I feel on the subject”.

Made even worse by the fact that the pastor from her church refuses to marry us because I am a non believer and speak out against Christian “brainwashing” tactics.

The result - more tears!

Ugh, I can relate to this.

An ex and I became aware of our beliefs (or lack thereof) during our first date. I didn’t think it would become a problem as long as we respected each other.

Eventually one night we’re just relaxing in bed, and she turns and asks, “Will you ever go to church?” I say no, then she asks if I believe in God. I didn’t give a satisfactory answer, and she bolts to the other side of the room.

This definitely caught me off guard, but I get to the point and ask if she wants to keep the relationship going. She says she isn’t sure and leaves my apartment ASAP.

Afterwards we made amends, and she said she only asked because she was “just curious.” I didn’t buy it; I don’t typically have a freak-out when I confirm something I already knew about my girlfriend. She was from a different country though, and some friends recently told me that kind of dramatic outburst was typical for her nationality. Stereotypes!

But that freak-out had me worried. Would she always harangue me to go to church? I didn’t find that fair as I never berated her to sleep in on Sundays instead. And what if we brought kids into the equation? Maybe I was looking too far ahead and being paranoid, but this is important shit.

To this day I’m not sure if this was a cultural misunderstanding or if I did the right thing. She certainly feels like “the one that got away,” and I sort of regret throwing in the towel at times.

As for the solicitors, I remember as a child always attempting to sleep in on Saturday morning. Then my mom would come running into the room, taking off lights and the TV, whispering for me to be quiet so we can act like nobody is home to avoid the Jehovah.

Maybe you can try that.

murderers are NOT bad people. people who have murdered, or raped, or cannibalized, or whatever, they arent BAD people, because there is no such thing as this binary of ‘good and bad’ in that regard. they have done bad things, and maybe they will continue to do bad things. but people are conditional animals. were are all shades of gray.
in the prison i meet with people who have done horrible and atrocious things, disgusting things. but that doesnt make them as people any less valid than you or i. they are still people with something more inside of them, and that is part of what my job is trying to do. get people to see that. i have done things, you have done thing that we are not proud of. but actionS define us, not any one single action.

this part aside, in the episcopal church there are MANY gay, female and even trans priests. in the catholic church, there arent. BUT, there are catholic priests who make needles and the likes available. if someone believes i am less of a person because of my sexuality, my gender, my skin, my cultural history, whatever, then so be it. its my responsibility to live my life in a way that will show those people i am NOT less than. getting angry, being rude, mocking people for what they hold dear and close to their hearts, that doesnt help my case. being sanctimonious and deciding that i am a better person because i dont pray to a god that some people have decided is a god of wrath, that doesnt make me better than they are. same way that you supporting the american meat industry and monsanto, helping to mutate crops genetically and cause for the downfall of non corporate farms doesnt make you a worse or any less valid person than i am. like i said before, we are all people, and we have to take the stuff we agree with along with the stuff we dont. thats kind of a big part of being in a society.

when the neo-nazi tells me that he thinks i am less than he is because of his bigotry, THEN i can get angry. THEN i can fight with him about that. but when he is holding open a door for me, because he thinks its just a nice thing to do, i cant start yelling at him because of his bigotry.

when the traveling church salespeople want to be helpful to you, be polite, but the moment they act in an unchristian (and yes, any sort of malice, anger, or animosity is unchristian) way, then be annoyed.

my point is, you cant just be rude to someone for what they believe. thoughts, conversations, and disagreements arent crimes. actions are.

murderers are NOT bad people. people who have murdered, or raped, or cannibalized, or whatever, they arent BAD people, because there is no such thing as this binary of ‘good and bad’ in that regard. they have done bad things, and maybe they will continue to do bad things. but people are conditional animals. were are all shades of gray.

AND I’m pretty sure this is where Romney lost the debate!! “Murderer’s are not bad people.”? are you out of your mind? you sound like you’ve been working at a prison too long. those people have you brain washed.

in the prison i meet with people who have done horrible and atrocious things, disgusting things. but that doesnt make them as people any less valid than you or i.

yes it does. even by your standard that you write about further down, " but actionS define us, not any one single action." “i meet with people who have done horrible and atrocious thingS” Yeah, “THINGS” and yet you think even though these people have horrible actions they are no different that someone cheating on a spouse.

they are still people with something more inside of them, and that is part of what my job is trying to do. get people to see that.

You may be right, there may be something more, but their action(S) have created the situation where nobody should be required to give them anymore attention/respect. Until they have really shown they are rehabilitated, which doesn’t come with an “I’m sorry.”

i have done things, you have done thing that we are not proud of. but actionS define us, not any one single action.

What happened to the shades of grey you spoke about? you think a rapist, cannibal, murderer is the same as some high school kid that cheats on his b/gfriend? or the guy who gets pulled over for speeding?

Yeah a neo nazi, as an individual, may not have killed anybody but the fact that they subscribe to a group that has advocated that behavior and many/some of those members may have done so means the blood is on all of members’ hands

this part aside, in the episcopal church there are MANY gay, female and even trans priests. in the catholic church, there arent. BUT, there are catholic priests who make needles and the likes available.

once again, these people are the exceptions not the rules, the exception means not common. and yes I am aware of the episcopalians and I applaude their progressive stances but again they are the exception to religion and not the norm… they also don’t happen to knock on doors.

if someone believes i am less of a person because of my sexuality, my gender, my skin, my cultural history, whatever, then so be it.

and I agree, but we’re not talking about thoughts we are talking about actions we are talking about people knocking on doors to tell everyone about how rustyhacksaw is a “White Male Faggot foreigner”. whether they start out on the doorstep with this phrasing or “let me tell you about my God” it’s all the same, because they wouldn’t be part of the group if they didn’t condone those actions.

its my responsibility to live my life in a way that will show those people i am NOT less than.

you think you have to prove yourself to biggots, racists, misogynists and the vermin of society? Why?

getting angry, being rude, mocking people for what they hold dear and close to their hearts, that doesnt help my case.

Why is it your case?

being sanctimonious and deciding that i am a better person because i dont pray to a god that some people have decided is a god of wrath, that doesnt make me better than they are.

Again, if it were just thoughts feelings and attitudes it wouldn’t matter, but you and I know that it’s more than that.

same way that you supporting the american meat industry and monsanto, helping to mutate crops genetically and cause for the downfall of non corporate farms doesnt make you a worse or any less valid person than i am.

it’s not really the same thing.

like i said before, we are all people, and we have to take the stuff we agree with along with the stuff we dont. thats kind of a big part of being in a society.

you keep bouncing back and forth between actions and thoughts as if they are the same but then you try to make distinctions between the two. which is it?

when the neo-nazi tells me that he thinks i am less than he is because of his bigotry, THEN i can get angry. THEN i can fight with him about that.

why? according to your last block of text you said you gotta take the bad with the good. he’s not doing anything to you. He just has his thoughts which he shared with you. his actions didn’t do anything to you at that moment.

but when he is holding open a door for me, because he thinks its just a nice thing to do, i cant start yelling at him because of his bigotry.

yes you can because you know he’s only doing it because your’e white.

So let me ask you this, so neo nazi holds the door for you but closes it on the black guy coming in behind you. Do you say something or only focus on the fact that he was nice to you, the white male?

when the traveling church salespeople want to be helpful to you, be polite, but the moment they act in an unchristian (and yes, any sort of malice, anger, or animosity is unchristian) way, then be annoyed.

but they’re not being helpful to me. they are being helpful to their own cause.

my point is, you cant just be rude to someone for what they believe. thoughts, conversations, and disagreements aren’t crimes. actions are.

yes I can because from those beliefs come actions and if they, as individuals, have not committed horrible actions they are supporting an organization that has.
Late,
grmpysmrf

I was born Catholic, raised Methodist, then when the joint custody agreement kicked in, I was transplanted into a household with a Catholic and a hardliner atheist. My religious upbringing would go from forced down my throat to absolutely forbidden every year or so, so I didn’t really have a solid chance at figuring out what I needed to figure out till I started college, hahah. I can’t really discuss things with either of my folks, because my pops is disillusioned to the point of abrasiveness and my ma’s a hippy chick space-case, and while I love 'em both, I can’t talk “big man in the sky” talk without it becoming either extremely one-sided or falling apart into a drinking session.

I’ll go to random churches in my area every so often and sit in for story time, which, let’s face it, is kinda what most organized religion is. Some stuff is quite fascinating and makes a damned bit of sense, some is rather “the fuck am I listening to,” but it serves a purpose and does what it does.

Religion as a substitute for science or as a political platform? Naff that. Religion as the only means to channel art and song? I’ll pass. Applied like a condiment to the foodstuffs that is life, in sparing amounts? Fuckin’ aces, man.

I’ve got a weak, but tangible handle of what I recognize as right, wrong, and divine, and a way of paying tribute to it all that I’m frankly uncomfortable sharing with anyone at the moment, because it’s pretty crazy to me and I just kinda happened upon it some months ago, but so far, it works for me and doesn’t hurt anybody, including me.

Now, as far as door-to-door spirit slangers go, I’m always willing to talk to 'em, but given that I live with my pops, it’s a bit difficult, as his answer to them is usually “Get the fuck off my property.” When I DO get the chance to talk to 'em, though, it usually winds up being extremely short, because they almost always bring a little girl with them, and I’m almost always shirtless and fresh out of the shower, and it gets… uncomfortable. I guess resembling their Lord and Savior and being sopping wet makes Bible talk a bit dicey, hahah.

Applied like a condiment to the foodstuffs that is life, in sparing amounts? Fuckin’ aces, man.

I like this!!!
Late,
grmpysmrf