Florida Kentucky & Missouri

Discussion
41

the issue is that saying ‘you need to prove to me that you are worth basic human rights’ is just fucked up. yeah, some people DO take advantage of the system, yeah, some people do bleed food stamps, welfare, TANF, and financial aid, but making people debase themselves to ‘earn’ those things is in NO way a humane solution.

So welfare is a basic human right?
And drug testing is “debasing”?

‘i would rather 100 guilty men go free than a single innocent man be jailed’, you know?

We’re not talking about putting them in jail. We’re talking about denying some people assistance unless certain adjustments are made.

yeah, there ARE people who do take advantage of things, but thats what reforms are for, thats what the already very time consuming and embarrassing systems in worksource programs are fore weeding out. we dont need to add this humiliating element to the whole ordeal.

Well, some people (like myself) would argue that such testings ARE a reform of an already jacked up system.

it comes from a place of privilege to think that people should just be OK with basically being accused of being selfish worthless dregs.

No one’s accusing anyone of anything. And if they’re not doing illegal drugs they shouldn’t have a problem with such measures.

Do you oppose background checks for gun purchases as well?

I don’t really see why it would be a big deal to anyone who doesn’t partake in such illegal activities. More pie for the rest (non drug users), ya dig?

But, I guess some people feel that resources should be collectively dispersed amongst people, regardless of an individual’s input to society or any value created by them. Those people are typically referred to as “Communists”.

42

Fail a drug test and go directly to jail? Sorry, I don’t follow that logic.
Possession or possession with intent to sell is a whole other situation.
Jail provides food, clothes, and jobs to its ‘residents’ in exchange for their ‘restricted mobility’.

43

Better free a thousand horse men roaming locked for guilty porn difference!!!

44

Is “porn difference” the new Prongs meme?

[laugh]

This whole business is another great reason why I’m glad I don’t mess around with anything anymore. Too fuckin’ complex.

45

[reply]
the issue is that saying ‘you need to prove to me that you are worth basic human rights’ is just fucked up. yeah, some people DO take advantage of the system, yeah, some people do bleed food stamps, welfare, TANF, and financial aid, but making people debase themselves to ‘earn’ those things is in NO way a humane solution.

So welfare is a basic human right?
And drug testing is “debasing”?

‘i would rather 100 guilty men go free than a single innocent man be jailed’, you know?

We’re not talking about putting them in jail. We’re talking about denying some people assistance unless certain adjustments are made.

yeah, there ARE people who do take advantage of things, but thats what reforms are for, thats what the already very time consuming and embarrassing systems in worksource programs are fore weeding out. we dont need to add this humiliating element to the whole ordeal.

Well, some people (like myself) would argue that such testings ARE a reform of an already jacked up system.

it comes from a place of privilege to think that people should just be OK with basically being accused of being selfish worthless dregs.

No one’s accusing anyone of anything. And if they’re not doing illegal drugs they shouldn’t have a problem with such measures.

Do you oppose background checks for gun purchases as well?

I don’t really see why it would be a big deal to anyone who doesn’t partake in such illegal activities. More pie for the rest (non drug users), ya dig?

But, I guess some people feel that resources should be collectively dispersed amongst people, regardless of an individual’s input to society or any value created by them. Those people are typically referred to as “Communists”.[/reply]

it IS debasing yourself to have to prove to someone else that you are clean. it is debasing and humiliating to have the state ASSUME that you are a lazy shit and thats why you dont have a job (during a time when unemployment is soaring, small businesses are collapsing, and state assistance programs are being jacked left and right).

whether or not i agree that crack addicts should be on welfare isnt the question here, what is being debated is whether or not telling those in need of assistance to have their bodies tested for cleanliness is a justified action… and i dont think it is. i dont think the state has the right to ask someone to be drug tested before they get food/gas/housing assistance. i dont think it is the place of the government or any agency therein to make people put themselves on display just for a human right.

and no, ‘welfare’ as a program isnt a human right, but food, shelter, help, and compassion are. it is a basic human right, despite mistakes and transgressions to be allowed to survive.

and then i said the ‘[…] than be jailed.’ thing what i was saying was that i would rather there be people who bleed a system than people who go unprotected. if the guidelines are stretched out and some people DO get food stamps they dont need or whatever else, as long as those who DO need them are granted them… i dont care about the liars. but adding restrictions and basically ‘jailing’ the innocent by not giving them what they need because they are addicts, or have used isnt fair, and it isnt humane.

and background checks for guns? that isnt the same at all. food stamps cant be used to rob a store, shoot a child, or intimidate a family. how is that similar? though my personal opinion on that issue isnt so black and white…

and if you have to take a test you ARE being accused. if someone says we cant trust you, so we need to test you, then yes, you ARE accusing them.

as for what someone else said, yeah, i think that if there is any shadow of a doubt people shouldnt be shipped off to these fractured hell houses we call the american prison system. i think unless it is 100% clear you did somethign you shouldnt be punished for it… side note, the west memphis three just got freed today… 17 years too late.

46

just because you dont consider it classist doesnt make it NOT classism.

I’ve had jobs where I’ve had to piss in a cup as a term for my employment. is that classist? hardly! If their job is to recieve a check, then they ought to work for it, even if it’s as simple as a drug test.

and damn straight if anybody is receiving any kind of tax money for anything, damn straight piss in a cup. I don’t want my Tax dollars supporting dope. buy that shit with your own private sector money, not handout/hard luck/tax money
Late,
grmpysmrf

47

. Republicans only want to drug test that part of the population who they aim to discredit the most.

Doesn’t take much to discredit the poor… seems a bit like over kill even for republicans

Rich white people, no matter how they came into their money get a pass.

I suppose the difference is, is that rich people are doing it on inherited wealth and aren’t directly sticking anyone with the bill (i’m talking generally here not bail out types)
where as when you think of the poor drug addict your think of some sloppy dirty bum bringing down property values being a direct nuisance to society.Typically you won’t catch wall street or richy frat boy in a crack house. That’s why they get a pass.

Rich people are better at hiding it. is it right? pobably not but that’s the difference in perception to the situation.

Rich people can afford to be fucked up and addicted, poor people cannot. Rich people afford mansions, poor people cannot, rich people can afford sports cars, poor people cannot. see the difference?

I seriously don’t care who does what, just do it with your own money, from your own money, like rich people. If you can’t, then don’t indulge.
Late,
grmpysmrf

48

it comes from a place of privilege to think that people should just be OK with basically being accused of being selfish worthless dregs.

No one’s accusing anyone of anything, the accusations come after you piss dirty.

I have no problem pissing in a cup. If I lost my job again and had to draw unemployment and I have to take a drug test for it, show me where to pee!!!

easiest thing I’ll ever have to do for money!! Hell, even collecting and smashing cans is more strenuous!
Late,
grmpysmrf

49

[reply]just because you dont consider it classist doesnt make it NOT classism.

I’ve had jobs where I’ve had to piss in a cup as a term for my employment. is that classist? hardly! [/reply]

well that isnt the same thing. you are being tested as a term of employment, not as a sign of approval to be ‘ok poor’ not ‘dirty poor’.

just because you are ok with pissing in a cup/having follicles removed/having a stool sample/whatever doesnt mean that other people have to feel that way. thats like saying ‘i feel comfortable posting videos of myself jerking off on my website, why doesnt everyone else?’

i dont know if you have spent much time being looked at as a piece of shit because of your skin color, your social class, your house, location, drug addictions, familial connections to drug addicts or so on. i dont know. but i can say that in my line of work, and in my own personal experience these things are REAL issues. unless you have been this victim of these forms of social oppressions you cant really speak too much about how it ISNT oppression.

forcing someone to put themselves on display because you say their word isnt good enough, or that drug use makes them no longer worth food or shelter is just not comfortable for everyone. you may be fine having to prove that you dont do drugs just to get the minimum amount they allot for you to live on in social welfare programs, but not everyone is, so dont make a law saying you have to, you know?

50

[reply][reply]just because you dont consider it classist doesnt make it NOT classism.

I’ve had jobs where I’ve had to piss in a cup as a term for my employment. is that classist? hardly! [/reply]

well that isnt the same thing. you are being tested as a term of employment, not as a sign of approval to be ‘ok poor’ not ‘dirty poor’.
[/reply]

You’re could be right, it’s not the same thing, its worse. Here I am trying to get a job, trying to be on the level and according to your logic they are already accusing me of being a junky. basically telling me, don’t even try, stay a junkie, you junkie…

BUT in my eyes and brain it is the same thing. I am being tested as a term of employment, employment that nets me my check, My check is my ability to produce food and shelter for myself. Welfare recipients, in this case, have it far easier that the straight and narrow, Hank Hill.

So, if ya’ piss dirty and get fired, go get on the dole, you don’t have to do shit for that money and you can continue getting high and bring nothing to society.

just because you are ok with pissing in a cup/having follicles removed/having a stool sample/whatever doesnt mean that other people have to feel that way. thats like saying ‘i feel comfortable posting videos of myself jerking off on my website, why doesnt everyone else?’

Not even close to the same thing. Masturbation videos on the net has no affect on whether or not you can pay the bills (unless that’s your business [:P]). Posting masturbation videos is a personal choice you can do or not do. it has no bearing on any other actions. You can also choose not to drug test. which this choice carries an action with it? see how they are not the same??

non sequitor aside, we all have to do things in life that we may not like, but if you’re asking someone else to take care of you, for whatever reason, you generally have to do what is asked of you. just like if you were at a job site. You tell your Forman to “fuck off, I ain’t doing that!” you get fired!!

You don’t want to take a drug test, guess what? You get fired! At least with a job situation you can go find another job. You tell the state to shove it, you aint gonna find another state to sponsor you. So you had better do what you’re told long enough to get in a better situation so THEN you can tell the state to shove it.

The state shouldn’t have to fund addicts and by making drug tests mandatory they will directly cut down on that.

The primary roll of a government is to promote the social well being of its people. How are state sponsored crack heads doing that? Giving money to people to go get high is not promoting the genera l welfare of the state.

i dont know if you have spent much time being looked at as a piece of shit because of your skin color, your social class, your house, location, drug addictions, familial connections to drug addicts or so on. i dont know. but i can say that in my line of work, and in my own personal experience these things are REAL issues. unless you have been this victim of these forms of social oppressions you cant really speak too much about how it ISNT oppression.

^ what does this have to do with any part of the topic at hand??

forcing someone to put themselves on display because you say their word isnt good enough, or that drug use makes them no longer worth food or shelter is just not comfortable for everyone.

WHAT??? Are you kidding me?

We had a dumpster diving thread earlier and there are plenty of overpasses for those that want to stay crackheads, So, anyone has food and shelter. They can provide it themselves or they can ask the state to help them. But don’t cry victim when the state establishes a few rules to keep themselves from sponsoring a crack addict.
How many drug addicts end up homeless because they spend all of their money of their dope? What makes you think because they are on welfare now they are going to stop that? Basically, what you are saying is it’s the states job to help them stay addicts?? I think not. I don’t want my government funding that.

you may be fine having to prove that you dont do drugs just to get the minimum amount they allot for you to live on in social welfare programs, but not everyone is,

Then they shouldn’t apply for social welfare programs. Not everyone is fine with waking up at 5 am to go to work but there is just some shit we have to do to survive. Being given free money as well as deciding the terms on which you will get that free money is just ridiculous!! Is there a welfare Union collective bargaining committee I’m not aware of? What do they think they are, rich?

so dont make a law saying you have to, you know?

Generaly I agree with that statement but it doesn’t hold here.I think we are mostly on the same side of the Isle but this is one we are just gonna disagree on. Despite what some people here on the board think I’m not a complete bleeding heart.
Late,
grmpysmrf

51

Rusty, I will share this with you (my mom shared it with me):
For the most part, life is what YOU make it.
The choices you make (or don’t make) determine your destiny.
IOW, Some people don’t ‘let’ things happen to them while others ‘use’ events/circumstances as an excuse for their behaviors.

My personal experience:
Almost all of my ‘friends’ that I had when I was a teen were addicts, abused by their parents (one had the shit beat out of her by her x hubby and ended up miscarrying their baby as a result of the beating), lower middle class/below the poverty line (economically depressed area), committed suicide (my younger sister’s best friend was murdered), or alcoholics. My own parents were a true piece of work.

No excuses, no crutch: I was 100% committed and very determined to make it out of my childhood hell hole because I did not want any part of the above for myself.

Therefore, I made a choice when I was 13 years old to ‘not let it happen to me’. I had a goal and devised a plan to reach that goal. The goal was to have a career where I could be completely financially independent of my parents and never ever have to move back into their house under any circumstance. The road traveled was very tough at times, but I never gave up. Sometimes, very serious sacrifices had to be made, but I made them without hesitation. There was no instant gratification either; it took many years of hard work.

What is the difference between me and the others? Not much. I can tell you that I have commitment, determination, ambition, passion, perseverance, and most of all, vision and work ethic.

I worked damn hard to pee in that cup as the terms of my employment where I make life and/or death decisions that impact others as well as myself.

From this point forward, there is no more ‘poor me’ whah whah bullshit. It is up to you to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, figure out what you want, devise a plan to get there (asking others for info when you need to do so), and set out to achieve it. It’s not going to happen over night, but it is attainable.

When there is nothing else, there is always hope.

53

Heartfelt stories of personal triumph and questions about the legality of drug testing aside I think most of the replies in this thread miss the point. And the point is…why are certain state governments targeting only a section of the state aid recipients with drug testing?

Why aren’t business owners who receive tax breaks and business grants subjected to mandatory random drug testing? And if you agree that it’s OK for Florida, Kentucky and Missouri to do it, do you agree then that it’s alright for the Federal Government to randomly test farmers who take subsidies, Wall Street banks who take bailout money or executives of the Big 3 auto makers, etc…

54

all of you have it right, to a degree. those laws in those hillbilly states will go down. a clear violation of the constitution.i find it interesting that states will punish and prosecute people with drug and alcohol problems.and treatment for these diseases is still unrecognized in most states as an alternative to incarceration… has not a single person seen the benefits of treatment. somebody here said something about testing the farmers(sarcastically, i believe). well, yes. if you want to go that far. go further, and test elementary and middle school kids. there is a break as a society to leave people alone to either do good or kill themselves slowly.as much as antonin scalia loves his anti-privacy stance, the US Supreme Court declared there was such a right, long before Scalia hit his head whilst stumbling up to the bench to declare war . there is no needs based testing required. no peeing in a cup. but what do i know.

55

And if you agree that it’s OK for Florida, Kentucky and Missouri to do it, do you agree then that it’s alright for the Federal Government to randomly test farmers who take subsidies, Wall Street banks who take bailout money or executives of the Big 3 auto makers, etc…

For me that answer is yes.
Late,
grmpysmrf

56

all of you have it right, to a degree. those laws in those hillbilly states will go down. a clear violation of the constitution.

How is it a violation of the constitution when you are asking the state for help? SO the state has no right to ask or a little insurance to protect their investment? I don’t agree

i find it interesting that states will punish and prosecute people with drug and alcohol problems.and treatment for these diseases is still unrecognized in most states as an alternative to incarceration…

No has found a way to make money on that situation yet.

somebody here said something about testing the farmers(sarcastically, i believe). well, yes. if you want to go that far. go further, and test elementary and middle school kids.

the difference is is that you are breaking the law if you don’t go to school. You are not breaking the law if you don’t receive welfare. Elementary school kids HAVE to go to school. No one HAS to receive welfare.

.as much as antonin scalia loves his anti-privacy stance, the US Supreme Court declared there was such a right, long before Scalia hit his head whilst stumbling up to the bench to declare war .

I hate scalia as much as the next liberal but I don’t think this is a privacy matter.
“I need money cause I lost my job… fuck you it doesn’t matter what the money is for just fork it over!”

I don’t agree with that scenario.

Late,
grmpysmrf

57

Rusty, I will share this with you (my mom shared it with me):
For the most part, life is what YOU make it.
The choices you make (or don’t make) determine your destiny.
IOW, Some people don’t ‘let’ things happen to them while others ‘use’ events/circumstances as an excuse for their behaviors.

My personal experience:
Almost all of my ‘friends’ that I had when I was a teen were addicts, abused by their parents (one had the shit beat out of her by her x hubby and ended up miscarrying their baby as a result of the beating), lower middle class/below the poverty line (economically depressed area), committed suicide (my younger sister’s best friend was murdered), or alcoholics. My own parents were a true piece of work.

No excuses, no crutch: I was 100% committed and very determined to make it out of my childhood hell hole because I did not want any part of the above for myself.

Therefore, I made a choice when I was 13 years old to ‘not let it happen to me’. I had a goal and devised a plan to reach that goal. The goal was to have a career where I could be completely financially independent of my parents and never ever have to move back into their house under any circumstance. The road traveled was very tough at times, but I never gave up. Sometimes, very serious sacrifices had to be made, but I made them without hesitation. There was no instant gratification either; it took many years of hard work.

What is the difference between me and the others? Not much. I can tell you that I have commitment, determination, ambition, passion, perseverance, and most of all, vision and work ethic.

I worked damn hard to pee in that cup as the terms of my employment where I make life and/or death decisions that impact others as well as myself.

From this point forward, there is no more ‘poor me’ whah whah bullshit. It is up to you to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, figure out what you want, devise a plan to get there (asking others for info when you need to do so), and set out to achieve it. It’s not going to happen over night, but it is attainable.

When there is nothing else, there is always hope.

im glad for you, really.

but even with drive not everyone makes it.

you cant tell me that some of the good in your life hasnt come from luck, or even a level of advantage. all the good that ever happens has a slight amount of both. and for some people some things just dont work out.

im not saying that every ‘dragon chaser’ with a lighter and some tinfoil should be given money for no reason. im strongly believe in available drug counseling, i strongly believe that when receiving welfare there shold be classes and education made mandatory so that you can acquire a trade/skill/employable element, im not saying welfare should just be handed out to everyone, im saying that making someone take a drug test so that they can be given money to live is inhumane. there are other ways to weed out the ‘welfare queens’ and whatever other colorful terms people use. there are many there ways, and programs like TANF already use them to an extreme that actually HURTS families in need. DSHS already sees your tax claimed pay stubs and decides month by month in some states, how much you will/should get on food stamps. there are already things in place,and there are other plans that could be enacted. i just disagree fundamentally with forced drug testing a PORTION of a group simply because you can. like wemp has been saying it isnt right that they get taxed but the rest of the government assisted nation isnt.

mooney, im hella glad for you, im happy that perseverance and dedication worked out in your case. im glad you dont need government aid of any sort and that you are completely financially independent, i am. and you care clear proof that it is POSSIBLE to rise up from class/social confinement (idont know about race/gender/or anything else so i wont speak to it)… but you arent the norm. life IS what you make it to a degree, but there is stll a HUGE amount of institutionalized oppression in america that not everyone can get around, some people just need government aid,it doesnt make them lazy, or stupid, or worthless, or weak.

58

i’m on that page. thanks.

59

i’m on that page. thanks.

was that to me? that wouldn’t go over very well as a closing argument would it?
Late,
grmpysmrf

60

king smurf. having worked for that most dreaded of institutions in the us (AAAAHHHHH…the ACLU) i think i know a little bit about laws digging into privacy rights. those laws are a distraction from the real issues of poverty, poverty and poverty. if we were to impose such mandates for the POOR, let’s impose mandates all over the place. it’s a circus idea which helps no one. and the poor, really poor in this country who are struggling to keep their families intact don’t need this. and btw, it IS unconstitutional.let the lawsuits fly.

61

I’m a white chick of Latin descent in a male-dominated, good-old-boy-network profession.

There will always be a group of people who need it (disability income, people who are temporarily out of work, etc.).

People are oppressing themselves. One of my best friend’s, her hubby is a middle school teacher: A 12 year old girl at his school intentionally got pregnant so that she could bring home the welfare check to her family as her contribution.

Test them all and make clean them up their act. I know that there are some functioning H users out there in the white collar world.