So…what’s the general consensus here?
Do we ban this thing or what?
Thoughts?
This is one of those thin ice/slippery slope issues.
In the United States I think it would be unconstitutional, but I don’t know anything about what freedoms the French constitution guarantees.
I would say that France, which is more of a mono-culture than say, the United States, has a vested interest in keeping that culture alive by whatever means it thinks are necessary. Whether they are merely trying to protect their culture or simply having a paranoid/reactionary response is certainly questionable.
One thing though I’ve noticed is whites of European descent and westerners in general are often seen as the bad guys who demand that other cultures assimilate to their standards. On the other hand, what would happen if say fer instance a bunch of African Americans moved to a middle eastern country and brought their culture along with it. Would you be at all surprised if the Muslims who inhabited that country passed reactionary laws against flat-brimmed baseball caps and do-rags? I wouldn’t.
It’s certainly not just the white Europeans who are trying to protect their culture. Tribal warfare is alive and well even in developed countries and the people engaging in it are doing it through political/socioeconomic means rather than chucking spears at each other.
Personally I think they are stupid and can’t look upon them without thinking that girl/woman is being made/expected to wear that because of her lousy husband/father etc. I don’t really buy the argument that women want to wear them. If they really had a choice I think we would see much less of them. They might be useful for women who are in socities where the men are juveniles and gawk at and harass women simply because they are women. But in countries where the dress code is relaxed they actually attract more attention.
Am I right in thinking the burqa is the overall garment, the hijab is the head scarf and the purda is the face veil? My own dislike for them and what they stand for however is my own opinion. I don’t think it’s a governments right to be able to ban them. Banning/censoring things is usually the wrong path to take as it makes those who are being put out by the ban more resistant and angry. I think it should be the right of private premises or shops to ban them if they wish, but on a public street…
In schools and with children in general there should be no religious iconography and religious garments that set kids out from each other. Kids are not tools for stodgy old men to keep their backward traditions.
If burqas are banned in public then i think public display of crucifixes and kippahs and other things like that should be banned also. And that aint going to happen.
even my islamic pals agree with me on this
they could make life a whole lot easier for themselves if they just did as the romans did when in rome.
i honestly don’t give a shit. unless i ran a bank or convenience store, i don’t really see any reason for them not to wear it. but in those contexts (plus courthouses, etc), it becomes an issue of whether private need is negated by public security.
and many libertarians would disagree with this. well, that’s nice. but i’m sure they’d see the rational perspective possessed by the thousands of apu’s from the kwik-e-marts out there.
And while we’re at it, we should ban nuns’ habits and priests’ vestments and Catholic school uniforms as well. [crazy]
I would hope that civilization can one day move past it’s tribal/religious/national prejudices. Banning certain articles of clothing is not the way to do it.
Can we ban the GIGANTIC sunglasses that women are now wearing? They all look like Bono from The Fly video. It’s ridiculous, I tell you.
1002
Well, I can see reason for changing nun’s garments:
[cool]
Good thread Peligro.
If I was in charge I wouldn’t ban them.
While I think they suck I don’t think the government has the right to ban clothing. I also don’t think religion has the right to tell people what to wear if women want to wear them help yourself!
Late,
grmpysmrf
Church and State being separate means that religion has the right to tell people to do whatever the religion wants them to but it also means they cannot legally force people to do it.
In the United States I think it would be unconstitutional.
Isn’t Guantanamo Bay ‘unconstitutional’??
Since when have the US been sensitive about trampling over individuals’ rights??
Since when have the US been sensitive about trampling over individuals’ rights??
Yup!
Late,
grmpysmrf
yeah, but it’s all good and well to say ‘don’t ban them’
but i completely disagree with them being worn in banks, etc.
take them the fuck off and deal with where you’ve chosen to come to. if they don’t like it, they should seriously reconsider where they chose to live.
i say this with my grandparents in mind; one set chose to do the right thing and basically fit in and life was generally good (tho not without it’s problems and fair share of racist fuckwits). on the other hand, another set of grandparents decided to go around harping on about how awesome mussolini was and ended up in an internment camp.
Church and State being separate means that religion has the right to tell people to do whatever the religion wants them to but it also means they cannot legally force people to do it.
Here and most other places, you are correct. However, Muslim countries are theocracies where Islam is the law (Sharia). The Muslim can leave the Muslim country but you can’t take the most strict interpretation of Islam out of the Muslim if it is all they know and they don’t want to change.
Most people who do not live in a theocracy have a very difficult time understanding the fact that the religion IS the law in a Muslim country. Even devout church-goers cannot conceptualize having the rules (laws) of their own religion enforced in such a barbaric manner - such as women who are not virgins on their wedding night being stoned to death, having strong acid throw in their face if it is uncovered in public, being stoned to death or killed by a firing squad for wearing “too revealing” clothing, etc.
If a woman wants to wear a burqa and is not coerced or threatened into wearing it, that’s one thing. However, I view the burqa as the oppression of women by men who are out-of-control control freaks because they feel threatened and/or insecure.
Isn’t Guantanamo Bay ‘unconstitutional’??
Guantanamo Bay is a military base with a prison that holds “enemy combatants” in a time of war. Constitutional rights only apply to US citizens. Not saying it isn’t fucked up what our government is doing there, it might fall into the category of “war crimes” but is not unconstitutional.
Since when have the US been sensitive about trampling over individuals’ rights??
I know you’re an Aussie and I don’t expect you to know very much about American history, but throughout the entire history of our country there have been battles over the first amendment, which pertains to individual freedoms. I’m not implying we’re the country that exercises the most freedoms and liberty on the planet, but certainly liberty and personal freedoms are important notions in our national identity. Just look at the new Arizona immigration law or google “ACLU” for recent battles on individual rights that are constantly being fought in the US.
And no, I do not believe in American exceptionalism, just calling it like I see it.
another set of grandparents decided to go around harping on about how awesome mussolini was and ended up in an internment camp.
I chuckled. Sorry.
I believe in some Italian spots, like Sicily for example, Mussolini is a very popular figure on mugs and other merchandise, along with Mr Guevara. Talk about extremes.
Re: muslim dress
Knew a girl (not very well, mind you) in college who wore a hijab or head scarf for about first 3 years of college. She was a stunner and a pretty sound person, very bright and informed. She wore the thing out of routine where she came from (think it was the Emirates). Then she stopped wearing it. She had the most awesome pitch black hair I’ve seen on a lass. Also remember doing about a quadruple take with a girl in London who wore the head scarf, prettiest girl ever I saw.
My lame prurience aside, it’s not men’s position to tell women what to and what not to wear.
I’m told (I swear I didn’t see it myself) that in the most recent Sex and the City movie the leads go into some restaurant or something in Morocco and the vivacious one starts to undress with heavily clad women around her and screams: “I have sex” or something to do effect, whereupon the muslim women start to shed their clothes to reveal designer jewelry and whatnot underneath their muslim facade. If muslim women can shed the shackles of their juvenile menfolk I hope it’s not inspired by the movie in question.
Let’s not forget “honour killings”…
Had a few of those up here in Canada last year…
Ie: parent killed their daughter because she wasn’t following traditions well enough. (wanting to stay out late, make up, etc)
Parents are enjoying Canadian jail now…
Burqa’s are fine of the women want to wear them, but seriously, you can’t wear them in banks or in court or anything. Or passport pictures…
I smell a jihad
Yesterday, I was shown a newspaper article where a Muslim cleric blamed the cause of earthquakes on the promiscuity of women. I almost asked the Ph.D. if that was a clip from The Onion or intentionally mistranslated to stir the pot. It wasn’t.
It has been confirmed that the women do wear regular clothes, makeup, shoes, and jewelry when they are in their own home and under their layers of cloth when out in public. Many of them will stretch the limits with pattern and color too.
A Persian friend’s wife, who also happens to be Persian, is stunningly beautiful. They would be walking and several strangers would stop her to tell her.
cant wear them in banks? i dont know about that.
i mean, i would say that people should be allowed to wear what they want and what they feel they need to, but at the same time, having a hidden face can be a sneaky thing. though if the bank has a metal detector then we can be sure no one has a weapon (of certain types of course) and thus, their face being hidden isnt as big a deal.
its a touchy subject, but i think that no government should ever be able to tell people what to wear or where to wear it. though if the PEOPLE feel uncomfortable, then it is just common sense and good public behavior to not stomp on the comfort of others.
your own personal happiness and comfort are no more important that those of the people next to you.
so yeah… hard question. i dont think i have a full blown answer. just conditional ones.