Ministry Spark The Paramount Huntington, NY 4-19-18 w/ Chelsea Wolfe & The God Bombs

Discussion
24

[reply]In concept, Antifa sounds great. But they’re just as ideologically dogmatic as anyone else and the critique (sometimes quite valid) is that they, in turn, act very fascist in nature as they have no tolerance for any thought outside their narrow frame.

Are you serious?! Not tolerating intolerance is not an example of intolerance.
[/reply]

I am not talking about “intolerance of intolerance”. As noted, I’m referring to “any thought outside their narrow frame”. I watched a bunch of silly skirmishes on YouTube from the shit up in Berkeley last year. People couldn’t even hold American flags or express their thought on anything that might be perceived as “conservative” or a stance that might be shared by the “conservatives” without the “Antifa” (I put it in quotes here just to signal that I’m well aware that it may be more an instance of mob thought at specific events than an actual presentation of the group’s agenda/ means.

[reply]I’d think they were pretty cool if they just counter-protested Neo-Nazis, KKK, etc. but they usually just create a flashpoint and end up, by default, looking like total asses and making victims and underdogs out of the creeps they oppose.

That’s the narrative that is pushed and I reject. As far as I know, they’re anti intolerance. So if you’re a hate group trying to make life difficult for someone else then yeah, they’re probably gonna get in your face.[/reply]

Yeah, the narrative is hard to follow, and I admit I’m often just reacting to whatever non-news garbage sit is forwarding a fragment of a fragment of a story.

[reply]Worse, though, is that, in America, we honestly don’t have a whole lot of straight up and open racists, bigots, etc. so they focus on other menial and tangential shit which may have nothing to do with Nazism, racism, etc.

We have enough openly racist groups and even still those that aren’t willing to be openly racist still display racist behaviors. you can usully spot those people by their rhetoric… “I’m not racist but…”
[\reply]

I don’t think witch hunts are the way to solve the racist problem in America, sorry. And unless someone’s actions are posing an immediate threat to someone else, I really don’t care. If someone wants to sit in their house and burn tiny crosses and mutter about Zion conspiracies, so be it.

Recent incidents have them swarming/protesting/threatening various metal shows because someone was photographed in a Swastika t-shirt 10 years ago . . . or because a past band member was “Sieg Heiling” in a photo from 10 years ago.

This sounds over blown if not down right false… Like BLM chanting to kill cops
[/reply]

It probably is overblown, to be honest. I don’t care for any of the dumb bands that were supposedly affected so I never did any deep research.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/black-lives-matter-protesters-chant-for-dead-cops-now-in-baton-rouge/

I just think if they actually had a clear objective and plans they wouldn’t be so restless or attack the dumbest of targets willy nilly. But I don’t think these groups typically give a shit about objectives. Mostly they want to dress up like skinny Ninjas and run around waving flags and throwing rocks. C’est La Vie.

Many of these people that do this aren’t associated with Antifa at all. Like when it happened in Seattle. It was the homeless doing it and Antifa got blamed cause it was convenient.
[/reply]

I can see that, of course. Anytime you do shit to whip up a mob scene it’s going to naturally pull in MORE knuckleheads with nothing better to do.

25

[reply][reply]Have any of us been at a concert that was protested by antifa and/or was canceled due to antifa?

Has it happened? I haven’t heard of any such instances.[/reply]

Antifa is always trying to stop Death In June from playing. Concerts have been canceled, but I don’t know if Antifa itself was associated with the groups that made that happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_in_June#Cancelled_performance_in_Chicago,_Illinois[/reply]

And this is where I always feel I need to be on the “Free speech, Dudes! Back off, Brah!” Many of the artists I enjoy or appreciate are controversial by nature and enjoy employing SYMBOLS for their power to elicit dialogue, questions, or just raw passion.

If some douchey black metal band gets to be sacrificial lamb today, who’s next. Lemmy enjoyed SS and Nazi regalia for the aesthetics. Rozz Williams/ Christian Death used it. Boyd Rice, Hanzl Und Gretl, blah blah blah. It doesn’t take too many degrees of bacon before all of a sudden MINISTRY is under glass for using a Germanesque wings logo.

It’s all fucking stupid to me, but I don’t claim to be any expert on Antifa or any other group.

26

I watched a bunch of silly skirmishes on YouTube from the shit up in Berkeley last year. People couldn’t even hold American flags or express their thought on anything that might be perceived as “conservative” or a stance that might be shared by the “conservatives” without the “Antifa” (I put it in quotes here just to signal that I’m well aware that it may be more an instance of mob thought at specific events than an actual presentation of the group’s agenda/ means.

Kind of the problem when anything that’s negative or even opposite of what the groups stands for is lumped in as “the other side” when it may not be “the other side” at all.

I don’t think witch hunts are the way to solve the racist problem in America, sorry.

Who said Witch hunts were the way to solve anything? Speaking out and reacting back is hardly a witch hunt.

And unless someone’s actions are posing an immediate threat to someone else, I really don’t care.

Well, there’s the rub isn’t it? Because at what point does the speech cross the line and pose a threat? inciting violence (which much of hate group speeches could be seen as) is a threat. Would Germany have taken off the way it did without the speeches that came first? you like Rod Serling, you should check out “He’s Alive”
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5rouxo

If someone wants to sit in their house and burn tiny crosses and mutter about Zion conspiracies, so be it.

Certainly and I agree, but this situation is not that. Rallying your hate in the public square is the exact opposite of sitting at home burning crosses and muttering about conspiracies.

27

[reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply]My probably with antifa is that the protestors are idiots.

But no problem with hate groups?[/reply]

You mean I am only allowed to have a problem with one thing?[/reply]
By your original statement it would appear you only have a problem with one thing.
you got hate groups and you got an Anti hate group and you chose to state your displeasure with the anti hate group.[/reply]

Perhaps you should lesson your assumptions.[/reply]
I didnt assume anything. I asked a clarifying question. You went off on some unrelated topic (although had the appearance of being related) as per usual.[/reply]

Your initial question was idiotic. “You don’t have a problem with hate groups?” Do you really need clarification on something as ridiculous as that? Did you expect me to answer “No, I think hate groups are cool.”[/reply]
I don’t know if you think hate groups are cool. I don’t presume anything about you anymore. What’s more ridiculous, my question or the fact that based on your own past admissions here on the board, you vote republican just like those hate groups? (We all know what big liberal/progressive voters those neo nazis are) You could very well have no problems with hate groups, especially since you felt it necessary to state your scorn for at least one group that is anti hate/anti intolerance and remain silent on the hate groups. Silence=agreement you have said nothing about hate groups. (now or anything I can recall in the past)[/reply]

If you can find anywhere on this forum where I said I voted Republic then find it and we’ll talk. But you never will, because you are making that up like you make everything else up. I have never even voted in my entire life. So put that in your crack pipe and smoke it. If you want to admit that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about then this is a good time to do it.[/reply]
I can’t tell if you’re really this simple or you’re doing it on purpose to be a jerk… When I say you “vote for it” that doesn’t mean you go to the ballot box (but I’m sure you already knew that and had no where else to run off to, so you focused on semantics.) It means you support it, you agree with it, you favor it, you do nothing to combat it. and if you want me to dig up examples of you supporting (see also “voting for it”) right wing ideologies (The same ones that hate groups actually support/vote for) you know damn well I won’t have to dig very deep. Any other directions you think you can run off in to avoid the question?

28

[reply][reply][reply]Have any of us been at a concert that was protested by antifa and/or was canceled due to antifa?

Has it happened? I haven’t heard of any such instances.[/reply]

Antifa is always trying to stop Death In June from playing. Concerts have been canceled, but I don’t know if Antifa itself was associated with the groups that made that happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_in_June#Cancelled_performance_in_Chicago,_Illinois[/reply]

And this is where I always feel I need to be on the “Free speech, Dudes! Back off, Brah!” Many of the artists I enjoy or appreciate are controversial by nature and enjoy employing SYMBOLS for their power to elicit dialogue, questions, or just raw passion.

If some douchey black metal band gets to be sacrificial lamb today, who’s next. Lemmy enjoyed SS and Nazi regalia for the aesthetics. Rozz Williams/ Christian Death used it. Boyd Rice, Hanzl Und Gretl, blah blah blah. It doesn’t take too many degrees of bacon before all of a sudden MINISTRY is under glass for using a Germanesque wings logo.

It’s all fucking stupid to me, but I don’t claim to be any expert on Antifa or any other group.[/reply]
From what little I know about DIJ the main guy is about as pro Nazi as danzig is a devil worshiper. It’s a schtick and many of his songs are actually Anti Nazi. From the wiki article he apparently played a concert in Israel and has at least one song that mocks holocaust deniers.

29

[reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply]My probably with antifa is that the protestors are idiots.

But no problem with hate groups?[/reply]

You mean I am only allowed to have a problem with one thing?[/reply]
By your original statement it would appear you only have a problem with one thing.
you got hate groups and you got an Anti hate group and you chose to state your displeasure with the anti hate group.[/reply]

Perhaps you should lesson your assumptions.[/reply]
I didnt assume anything. I asked a clarifying question. You went off on some unrelated topic (although had the appearance of being related) as per usual.[/reply]

Your initial question was idiotic. “You don’t have a problem with hate groups?” Do you really need clarification on something as ridiculous as that? Did you expect me to answer “No, I think hate groups are cool.”[/reply]
I don’t know if you think hate groups are cool. I don’t presume anything about you anymore. What’s more ridiculous, my question or the fact that based on your own past admissions here on the board, you vote republican just like those hate groups? (We all know what big liberal/progressive voters those neo nazis are) You could very well have no problems with hate groups, especially since you felt it necessary to state your scorn for at least one group that is anti hate/anti intolerance and remain silent on the hate groups. Silence=agreement you have said nothing about hate groups. (now or anything I can recall in the past)[/reply]

If you can find anywhere on this forum where I said I voted Republic then find it and we’ll talk. But you never will, because you are making that up like you make everything else up. I have never even voted in my entire life. So put that in your crack pipe and smoke it. If you want to admit that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about then this is a good time to do it.[/reply]
I can’t tell if you’re really this simple or you’re doing it on purpose to be a jerk… When I say you “vote for it” that doesn’t mean you go to the ballot box (but I’m sure you already knew that and had no where else to run off to, so you focused on semantics.) It means you support it, you agree with it, you favor it, you do nothing to combat it. and if you want me to dig up examples of you supporting (see also “voting for it”) right wing ideologies (The same ones that hate groups actually support/vote for) you know damn well I won’t have to dig very deep. Any other directions you think you can run off in to avoid the question?[/reply]

OK, I have now just put you into the same category as anitfa.[/reply]
Still changing the subject on a simple question you have yet to answer. So, you put me in the same category as antifa, huh? Antihate and anti intolerance. Wow you are slow. Ive been that all the time ive been posting here. I suppose im flattered that youve finally noticed. I guess it is that you are just that simple. My apologies to you.

30

It doesn’t take too many degrees of bacon before all of a sudden MINISTRY is under glass for using a Germanesque wings logo.

It’s all fucking stupid to me, but I don’t claim to be any expert on Antifa or any other group.

Well, close…

31

BTW, as much as I like the idea of Al and co. bringing up a subject such as Antifa (instead of, god forbid, Republican presidents for the -nth time), this is how shit-stirring occurs. One group praises Antifa, one group goes against it…

As much as it is refreshing to not see something so one-sided, subjects like Antifa are like a loaded subject, prone to splintering and just overall fuckery in opinion.

If I’m not mistaken, Al brought up 4chan as well on the latest record/tour and, well, I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts he doesn’t know shit about 4chan.

32

From what little I know about DIJ the main guy is about as pro Nazi as danzig is a devil worshiper. It’s a schtick and many of his songs are actually Anti Nazi. From the wiki article he apparently played a concert in Israel and has at least one song that mocks holocaust deniers.

Accurate… but this is what I’m referring to when talking about Antifa (or any knee-jerk clowns in general) attacking things based merely on some superficial symbolism or imagery. And I don’t know the case specifically (this is the first I’d heard of it, but certainly not the first time Death in June has been blindly targeted).

33

BTW, as much as I like the idea of Al and co. bringing up a subject such as Antifa (instead of, god forbid, Republican presidents for the -nth time), this is how shit-stirring occurs. One group praises Antifa, one group goes against it…

As much as it is refreshing to not see something so one-sided, subjects like Antifa are like a loaded subject, prone to splintering and just overall fuckery in opinion.

I think that’s what makes it awesome. But even Al cowered a bit to all the reactionary dimwits and had to make videos explaining the song and its context (which was a waste of time since the people who are going to get a stick up their butts about a song never actually look into what it’s about or the context anyway).

Even if he was 100% pro-Antifa, I’d still think it was great. I think people should put their thoughts and feelings into their art no matter how radical. I respect sincerity over accuracy and “rightness” and shying away from something because it might ruffle feathers or hurt some fannies is the weakest thing someone can do.

34

It was a baited “question” to throw out the idea that DJ Pon 3 is somehow “okay with hate groups” simply because he didn’t line up with some liberal jibber jabber while expressing some criticism of Antifa. I probably wouldn’t have answered it either. DJ is obviously on opposite sides of the political spectrum than Grumps on a lot of things, but to play that card (and to insinuate that his refusal to get snagged in such a game implies racism or support of racism/bigotry on his part) is a little dirty in my opinion.

I mean, we can always play that game if we want to play dirty. “But, Chuck, are you saying it’s okay to rape children? Because you never came out to clarify your position on it, so I think we’ll just assume that’s your thing until you answer my question.” And typically, it’s not just an answer that would suffice when people ask such garbage. They’re just looking to push the envelope and try to light a fire under their adversary to try and get them to the point of raging out so they can further smear them.

I don’t honestly know where DJ would fall “politically” and I think labeling people as conservative or liberal does a disservice to free thought (I get labeled as either all the time based on my opinion or lack thereof on any given issue).

The topic arose at some point about Antifa . . . Expressing one’s views on the group (or perceived group) shouldn’t be used as some catch all “fill-in-the-blanks” solution to make up a caricature of someone.

I always kinda saw DJ as a skeptic, like myself. He tends to see a lot of what’s presented by either side as a bunch of smoke and mirrors. I don’t think that’s necessarily a political stance. Probably a bit of a realist (though many may also brand such people as paranoids or conspiracists).

I don’t really vote either. I typically turn in a ballot, so I don’t get marked as one of the zillion who didn’t even show up for an election, but I usually just scribble a bunch of profanity on it and return the ballot card. I think it gets counted as a “spoilt” ballot, which is exactly how I want it.

35

[reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply][reply]My probably with antifa is that the protestors are idiots.

But no problem with hate groups?[/reply]

You mean I am only allowed to have a problem with one thing?[/reply]
By your original statement it would appear you only have a problem with one thing.
you got hate groups and you got an Anti hate group and you chose to state your displeasure with the anti hate group.[/reply]

Perhaps you should lesson your assumptions.[/reply]
I didnt assume anything. I asked a clarifying question. You went off on some unrelated topic (although had the appearance of being related) as per usual.[/reply]

Your initial question was idiotic. “You don’t have a problem with hate groups?” Do you really need clarification on something as ridiculous as that? Did you expect me to answer “No, I think hate groups are cool.”[/reply]
I don’t know if you think hate groups are cool. I don’t presume anything about you anymore. What’s more ridiculous, my question or the fact that based on your own past admissions here on the board, you vote republican just like those hate groups? (We all know what big liberal/progressive voters those neo nazis are) You could very well have no problems with hate groups, especially since you felt it necessary to state your scorn for at least one group that is anti hate/anti intolerance and remain silent on the hate groups. Silence=agreement you have said nothing about hate groups. (now or anything I can recall in the past)[/reply]

If you can find anywhere on this forum where I said I voted Republic then find it and we’ll talk. But you never will, because you are making that up like you make everything else up. I have never even voted in my entire life. So put that in your crack pipe and smoke it. If you want to admit that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about then this is a good time to do it.[/reply]
I can’t tell if you’re really this simple or you’re doing it on purpose to be a jerk… When I say you “vote for it” that doesn’t mean you go to the ballot box (but I’m sure you already knew that and had no where else to run off to, so you focused on semantics.) It means you support it, you agree with it, you favor it, you do nothing to combat it. and if you want me to dig up examples of you supporting (see also “voting for it”) right wing ideologies (The same ones that hate groups actually support/vote for) you know damn well I won’t have to dig very deep. Any other directions you think you can run off in to avoid the question?[/reply]

OK, I have now just put you into the same category as anitfa.[/reply]
Still changing the subject on a simple question you have yet to answer. So, you put me in the same category as antifa, huh? Antihate and anti intolerance. Wow you are slow. Ive been that all the time ive been posting here. I suppose im flattered that youve finally noticed. I guess it is that you are just that simple. My apologies to you.[/reply]

Yea, keep thinking that.[/reply]
I’ll just put this here for you regarding the party you favor.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/20/us/politics/arthur-jones-illinois.html
And here too
https://www.google.com/amp/thehill.com/homenews/campaign/386394-california-gop-senate-candidate-who-admires-hitler-kicked-out-of-states-gop%3Famp
Completely embraced until they stopped using code

36

[reply]It doesn’t take too many degrees of bacon before all of a sudden MINISTRY is under glass for using a Germanesque wings logo.

It’s all fucking stupid to me, but I don’t claim to be any expert on Antifa or any other group.

Well, close…

[/reply]

This was actually what I was thinking of, but yeah, you can find a million examples of anyone if we can paint someone simply by finding them in proximity to a symbol . . .

37

It was a baited “question” to throw out the idea that DJ Pon 3 is somehow “okay with hate groups” simply because he didn’t line up with some liberal jibber jabber while expressing some criticism of Antifa. I probably wouldn’t have answered it either. DJ is obviously on opposite sides of the political spectrum than Grumps on a lot of things, but to play that card (and to insinuate that his refusal to get snagged in such a game implies racism or support of racism/bigotry on his part) is a little dirty in my opinion.

I mean, we can always play that game if we want to play dirty. “But, Chuck, are you saying it’s okay to rape children? Because you never came out to clarify your position on it, so I think we’ll just assume that’s your thing until you answer my question.” And typically, it’s not just an answer that would suffice when people ask such garbage. They’re just looking to push the envelope and try to light a fire under their adversary to try and get them to the point of raging out so they can further smear them.

I don’t honestly know where DJ would fall “politically” and I think labeling people as conservative or liberal does a disservice to free thought (I get labeled as either all the time based on my opinion or lack thereof on any given issue).

The topic arose at some point about Antifa . . . Expressing one’s views on the group (or perceived group) shouldn’t be used as some catch all “fill-in-the-blanks” solution to make up a caricature of someone.

I always kinda saw DJ as a skeptic, like myself. He tends to see a lot of what’s presented by either side as a bunch of smoke and mirrors. I don’t think that’s necessarily a political stance. Probably a bit of a realist (though many may also brand such people as paranoids or conspiracists).

I don’t really vote either. I typically turn in a ballot, so I don’t get marked as one of the zillion who didn’t even show up for an election, but I usually just scribble a bunch of profanity on it and return the ballot card. I think it gets counted as a “spoilt” ballot, which is exactly how I want it.

I get it, gray area and such. But you got pro fascism groups and you got antifascism groups and ya choose to speak out against the anti fascism group and remain silent on the other? I’m sure DJ doesnt think he supports that shit but, one, he wouldnt/couldnt even say he doesnt and two his preferred party is always getting popped for having fascists in their midst. At what point should someone take a good long look at what they believe? If my beliefs line up with a group that likes to discriminate against people what does that say about me? Whether i wanna believe it or not

38

…and Fox News is piped into military bases.

I remember Eureka posting maybe on a FB that he had been at a show that was stopped due to antifa.

39

[reply][reply]It was a baited “question” to throw out the idea that DJ Pon 3 is somehow “okay with hate groups” simply because he didn’t line up with some liberal jibber jabber while expressing some criticism of Antifa. I probably wouldn’t have answered it either. DJ is obviously on opposite sides of the political spectrum than Grumps on a lot of things, but to play that card (and to insinuate that his refusal to get snagged in such a game implies racism or support of racism/bigotry on his part) is a little dirty in my opinion.

I mean, we can always play that game if we want to play dirty. “But, Chuck, are you saying it’s okay to rape children? Because you never came out to clarify your position on it, so I think we’ll just assume that’s your thing until you answer my question.” And typically, it’s not just an answer that would suffice when people ask such garbage. They’re just looking to push the envelope and try to light a fire under their adversary to try and get them to the point of raging out so they can further smear them.

I don’t honestly know where DJ would fall “politically” and I think labeling people as conservative or liberal does a disservice to free thought (I get labeled as either all the time based on my opinion or lack thereof on any given issue).

The topic arose at some point about Antifa . . . Expressing one’s views on the group (or perceived group) shouldn’t be used as some catch all “fill-in-the-blanks” solution to make up a caricature of someone.

I always kinda saw DJ as a skeptic, like myself. He tends to see a lot of what’s presented by either side as a bunch of smoke and mirrors. I don’t think that’s necessarily a political stance. Probably a bit of a realist (though many may also brand such people as paranoids or conspiracists).

I don’t really vote either. I typically turn in a ballot, so I don’t get marked as one of the zillion who didn’t even show up for an election, but I usually just scribble a bunch of profanity on it and return the ballot card. I think it gets counted as a “spoilt” ballot, which is exactly how I want it.

I get it, gray area and such. But you got pro fascism groups and you got antifascism groups and ya choose to speak out against the anti fascism group and remain silent on the other? I’m sure DJ doesnt think he supports that shit but, one, he wouldnt/couldnt even say he doesnt and two his preferred party is always getting popped for having fascists in their midst. At what point should someone take a good long look at what they believe? If my beliefs line up with a group that likes to discriminate against people what does that say about me? Whether i wanna believe it or not[/reply]

Gunnar’s response pretty much validated my lack of a response to you. He obviously gets it so I assume others do as well.[/reply]
Pitiful that you can’t speak for yourself.

40

I get it, gray area and such. But you got pro fascism groups and you got antifascism groups and ya choose to speak out against the anti fascism group and remain silent on the other?

It was the topic of discussion. “Antifa” . . . a song, presumably about Antifa, the group. And I didn’t even speak out “against” them. Just noted why they appear clownish to many of us and how they may be compromising the greater good by conducting themselves in certain ways.

And it’s a group that’s gotten a lot of recent attention so I had some experience (not directly, but in observing articles and discussions and such) to speak on.

If Al had written a song appearing to praise the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood, then I’d have something to say about it as well.

I’m sure DJ doesnt think he supports that shit but, one, he wouldnt/couldnt even say he doesnt and two his preferred party is always getting popped for having fascists in their midst.

That’s baloney, though. You keep equating him with a PARTY and I’ve never once seen him align himself with one. He even went so far as to specifically TELL you that he doesn’t vote after you told him he votes for said party.

At what point should someone take a good long look at what they believe? If my beliefs line up with a group that likes to discriminate against people what does that say about me? Whether i wanna believe it or not

But that’s exactly my problem with politics in general. People can’t to make a decision or have an opinion on any specific ISSUE without having someone else assigning a political label to it.

I’m anti illegal immigration and I oppose the use of illegal labor (basically on account of it being ILLEGAL and shit)… this makes many think I’m a supporter of Trump. Uhhhh, wrong.

I’m also an advocate of sensible gun control. This makes many think I’m a liberal or something. Wrong again.

And I think a large part (no, not all, by any means) of that #metoo stuff was complete nonsense and just a bunch of pissed off women who made bad decisions and are full of regret. This puts me as a conservative chauvinist pig to many on the liberal side.

I’m pro death penalty. I’m okay with gay marriage. I make my stance on stuff based on what I believe and think is right, NOT what someone else tells me is right or what lines up with any particular party line.

If people discussed ISSUES as individual issues as opposed to trying to paint everything according to party lines, it would make rational conversation a lot easier.

You included examples of some Nazi guy scoring the Republican spot in some election, but that was not really about the Republican party (which promptly denounced him — as noted in the same article) to me, but about how you can get some really fucked up candidates when there’s no one else to step up to fill that spot on a ballot.

So some Nazi guy conveniently labels himself Republican? Why would you use him as a representative for all of the party that officially denounced him?

If some psycho takes the Democrat label for himself are you going to let him be the poster boy for all Democrats?
Early on, the DEMOCRAT party was closely linked to the KKK, but I don’t assume that one equates to the other any more than I do the same for Republican stuff.

I don’t care that you got passionate thoughts about the Republican party. But it’s silly to keep fighting this good and evil battle based on the color of someone’s voting card . . . especially when the person you’re choosing to poke continually has never given a color and doesn’t even vote.

41

[reply]
I get it, gray area and such. But you got pro fascism groups and you got antifascism groups and ya choose to speak out against the anti fascism group and remain silent on the other?

It was the topic of discussion. “Antifa” . . . a song, presumably about Antifa, the group. And I didn’t even speak out “against” them. Just noted why they appear clownish to many of us and how they may be compromising the greater good by conducting themselves in certain ways.

And it’s a group that’s gotten a lot of recent attention so I had some experience (not directly, but in observing articles and discussions and such) to speak on.

My reply wasn’t to you. I thought it was clear I was referencing DJ. I didn’t think you spoke out against them. You spoke out against a certain angle (which I think is wrong, but ok no, big deal) Of which you don’t agree, but you didn’t denounce the whole group/cause as “idiots.”

If Al had written a song appearing to praise the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood, then I’d have something to say about it as well.

As we all should.

[reply]I’m sure DJ doesnt think he supports that shit but, one, he wouldnt/couldnt even say he doesnt and two his preferred party is always getting popped for having fascists in their midst.

That’s baloney, though. You keep equating him with a PARTY and I’ve never once seen him align himself with one. He even went so far as to specifically TELL you that he doesn’t vote after you told him he votes for said party.
[/reply]
It’s hard not to equate him with a party when every political opinion he offers here tows the right wing line. And I’ll say again when I say “vote,” that means “prefer,” “condone,” “agree with” I know he doesn’t vote, he’s stated as such many times as if that absolves him from celebrating the right and offering their tired narratives.

[reply]At what point should someone take a good long look at what they believe? If my beliefs line up with a group that likes to discriminate against people what does that say about me? Whether i wanna believe it or not

But that’s exactly my problem with politics in general. People can’t to make a decision or have an opinion on any specific ISSUE without having someone else assigning a political label to it.
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Of course they can. I don’t assign a political label to you. You’re even handed, thoughtful and you offer counter insights where you explain your reasoning. If you think this describes DJ as well then we are clearly reading a different board. I’ve yet to see DJ Offer any opinion other than the right wing talking points he offers.

I’m anti illegal immigration and I oppose the use of illegal labor (basically on account of it being ILLEGAL and shit)… this makes many think I’m a supporter of Trump. Uhhhh, wrong.

I’m also an advocate of sensible gun control. This makes many think I’m a liberal or something. Wrong again.

And I think a large part (no, not all, by any means) of that #metoo stuff was complete nonsense and just a bunch of pissed off women who made bad decisions and are full of regret. This puts me as a conservative chauvinist pig to many on the liberal side.

I’m pro death penalty. I’m okay with gay marriage. I make my stance on stuff based on what I believe and think is right, NOT what someone else tells me is right or what lines up with any particular party line.

You and I are on the exact same page. I agree with all of your statements here, here but with DJ try to find any post anywhere where he breaks with the party line. Just because he doesn’t vote doesn’t mean he’s not influencing others with his nonsense.

If people discussed ISSUES as individual issues as opposed to trying to paint everything according to party lines, it would make rational conversation a lot easier.

Clearly, I don’t disagree.

You included examples of some Nazi guy scoring the Republican spot in some election, but that was not really about the Republican party (which promptly denounced him — as noted in the same article) to me, but about how you can get some really fucked up candidates when there’s no one else to step up to fill that spot on a ballot.

These are not isolated incidents. The party officials never have a problem with their nazi candidates until they blow their cover, then it’s a problem. That in itself a big problem (If not the main) for me with the right wing party. Nazi attitudes and ideals are ok for the repubs but as soon as you call yourself what you are, now there’s a problem. Basically it’s ok for repub to act like nazis but not call themselves one. The fact that they can’t tell a nazi from a republican
WTF?! You never see this problem from the left.

So some Nazi guy conveniently labels himself Republican? Why would you use him as a representative for all of the party that officially denounced him?

Because the republicans can’t tell the difference. Some Nazi labels himself a green candidate or a liberal and he doesn’t even make the ballot for that party. He’s spotted as a fraud immediately and booted. Republicans can’t tell the difference between their ideals and nazi ideals
That is a HUGE problem.

If some psycho takes the Democrat label for himself are you going to let him be the poster boy for all Democrats?

If it happens constantly, yeah. If their platform aligns so closely that psychos easily blend as democrats, yeah.

Early on, the DEMOCRAT party was closely linked to the KKK, but I don’t assume that one equates to the other any more than I do the same for Republican stuff.

That’s right, before the switch. If this were the 1950s and before I’d probably be a republican right now. But the parties swapped and what used to be the KKK democrats now closely resembles the modern day republican party, while the modern day democrat party kinda resembles the past Republicans albeit FAR more progressive.

I don’t care that you got passionate thoughts about the Republican party. But it’s silly to keep fighting this good and evil battle based on the color of someone’s voting card . . . especially when the person you’re choosing to poke continually has never given a color and doesn’t even vote.

It’s not the color of their voting it the attitudes and the type of evil they call acceptable.

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[reply][reply][reply][reply]It was a baited “question” to throw out the idea that DJ Pon 3 is somehow “okay with hate groups” simply because he didn’t line up with some liberal jibber jabber while expressing some criticism of Antifa. I probably wouldn’t have answered it either. DJ is obviously on opposite sides of the political spectrum than Grumps on a lot of things, but to play that card (and to insinuate that his refusal to get snagged in such a game implies racism or support of racism/bigotry on his part) is a little dirty in my opinion.

I mean, we can always play that game if we want to play dirty. “But, Chuck, are you saying it’s okay to rape children? Because you never came out to clarify your position on it, so I think we’ll just assume that’s your thing until you answer my question.” And typically, it’s not just an answer that would suffice when people ask such garbage. They’re just looking to push the envelope and try to light a fire under their adversary to try and get them to the point of raging out so they can further smear them.

I don’t honestly know where DJ would fall “politically” and I think labeling people as conservative or liberal does a disservice to free thought (I get labeled as either all the time based on my opinion or lack thereof on any given issue).

The topic arose at some point about Antifa . . . Expressing one’s views on the group (or perceived group) shouldn’t be used as some catch all “fill-in-the-blanks” solution to make up a caricature of someone.

I always kinda saw DJ as a skeptic, like myself. He tends to see a lot of what’s presented by either side as a bunch of smoke and mirrors. I don’t think that’s necessarily a political stance. Probably a bit of a realist (though many may also brand such people as paranoids or conspiracists).

I don’t really vote either. I typically turn in a ballot, so I don’t get marked as one of the zillion who didn’t even show up for an election, but I usually just scribble a bunch of profanity on it and return the ballot card. I think it gets counted as a “spoilt” ballot, which is exactly how I want it.

I get it, gray area and such. But you got pro fascism groups and you got antifascism groups and ya choose to speak out against the anti fascism group and remain silent on the other? I’m sure DJ doesnt think he supports that shit but, one, he wouldnt/couldnt even say he doesnt and two his preferred party is always getting popped for having fascists in their midst. At what point should someone take a good long look at what they believe? If my beliefs line up with a group that likes to discriminate against people what does that say about me? Whether i wanna believe it or not[/reply]

Gunnar’s response pretty much validated my lack of a response to you. He obviously gets it so I assume others do as well.[/reply]
Pitiful that you can’t speak for yourself.[/reply]

I can speak for myself and I can also refuse to speak when questioned by a jack ass.[/reply]
Sure you can [;)]. Though when do you ever? So now this back and forth has been you not speaking? You ever had an original thoght in that little pea brain of yours? I’m sure you’ll ask someone for the answer or hope someone jumps in for you so you can say “yeah what they said.” Its a good thing for you that idiocy isnt a physical pain otherwise im sure you’d be hopped up on opium.

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Took it all back huh?
Good for you.

Yeah, I know this started because you said “The problem I have with Antifa is that they are all idiots.”

Completely painting the entire organization, an organization that is against intolerance, hate, and fascism, as idiots. As if an organization against fascism intolerance and hate are worthless.

Not “maybe some of the tactics they use are idiotic.”
Not “one or two (dozen, if you like) people bring down the whole group.”
Not “I hope they can get their shit together and do their counter protests better.”
Not, “they mean well, but I think they need a better plan.”

No, you painted the whole organization as idiots. Setting up the situation where me asking you if you had “no problem with hate groups?” a relevant question. And instead of maybe clarifying or expressing your extremely shallow position/attitude with a little depth, you chose to throw a temper tantrum.

You still can reply with your dissatisfaction with the group. I’m seriously interested. “They’re all idiots” explains nothing and adds zero to the conversation. And as I’ve pointed out before, all you do is parrot right wing ideology (this being no exception) every time you have a political opinion.

I enjoy your one liners and your funny comments on most stuff that is posted here. You’re obviously a clever guy. But your lack of clarity on serious issues/topics is quite frustrating especially when you get angry when you’re called out on it. You’re probably capable of expressing yourself much better than you do on issues of politics, I’m not sure why you don’t.