Cobain's Death - 20 years. Legacy? Influence? Grunge?

Nirvana became popular around when I was still listening to mostly gangsta rap (favorites included Too Short, NWA, DJ Quik, Eazy-E, etc.). My friends were playing the Smells Like Teen Spirit cassingle and I made fun of them for listening to “rock music” but I was secretly intrigued.

I bought the albums, was into tracking down bootlegs/b-sides for a good while, but eventually lost interest in Nirvana. I’ll still listen from time to time when a song comes up on shuffle but I can’t remember the last time I listened to an album all the way through. Solid albums. Scanning the track lists and assigning an arbitrary value to each song, In Utero seems the strongest of the three major releases.

As far as the Zombie article, I don’t think Cobain or any of these guys was “anti-rock star” just because they didn’t dress up fancy. They were total rock stars, at least to my circle of friends. There weren’t a bunch of rappers ready to take the lead either. Rap was already becoming more and more popular at the time. Yo MTV Raps (started in 88) was an hour long special dedicated to rap videos. Slowly, Yo MTV Raps spawned into MTV and what used to be on regular MTV rotation was relegated to late night shows; this is in the early 90s. So they just didn’t step in and take the mic, popularity was already building and companies decided to start promoting it heavier. I seriously doubt that some Maiden freak got sick of all the crappy rock bands and decided to convert to Coolio, as suggested by Zombie.

The problems with record companies giving major promotion to shitty milquetoast rock bands, more so since the 90s, reminds me of the video game crash in the 80s. Too many shitty bands, too much saturation, wrong shit getting publicity, and no quality control.

I’m not going to read anyone else’s comments or thoughts until I make mine. So here goes nothing . . .

First off, I think Nirvana and Kurt Cobain are both WIDELY overrated. I don’t think Cobain was any musical genius or the voice of our generation or any of that crap. And I don’t think Nirvana was anything groundbreaking, either. I personally find them to be a bit dull. If anything, the Nirvana phenomenon was really a matter of perfect timing. But I was there and part of it all, regardless.

It was '91 when Nevermind came out. This was a time when people were pretty jaded, I think, with the music scene as a whole. On one side we had a lot of buttrock from the likes of Poison and Warrant, and on the other side we had the “alternative” with stuff like Depeche Mode, B52’s, and They Might Be Giants (yeah, radical stuff, I know). I’m not even discussing the fixed variable of pop since that is really a constant which will always be around and is kind of irrellevant to the discussion at hand. I’m basing my paradigm through the eyes of a So.CA kid with radio stations KNAC (“hard rock/metal”), KROQ (alternative), and KIIS (top 40).

When Nirvana hit it was something different and it seemed to “connect” with a LOT of kids. We were, as a whole, bored, jaded, confused, and angry . . . and we didn’t particularly know why. I think it’s just a product of being Suburban, white, and normal. Nirvana didn’t try to distract us from our unpleasantness like so many Shiny Happy People have. Neither did Nirvana try to EXPLAIN things in a futile manner like so much “punk” (telling us we were supposed to be pissed because of our parents, our government, our churches . . . ad infinitum). They just sort of ECHOED our feelings. Kurt was one of us. He did NOT have the answers. That’s why he was loved and that’s why we identified with him.

And so he became a figurehead of the times. Lost, confused, sad, angry . . . I don’t recall Nirvana ever telling us we needed to save the Tibetan Rain Forests to Cure AIDS for Gay Whales or any of that crap (Krist probably did later on, though). They just made a bunch of angry noise that a lot of angry kids felt sounded a lot like the internal angry noise they couldn’t themselves figure out how to get out.

And so it went for a couple years, and Nirvana became the biggest thing on the planet. A nice effect was that a lot of other bands and artists (many of whom had already been around for some time) started getting to come along for the ride. MTV read their cards right and gave a nightly video show called “120 Minutes” which put forward a lot of these previously overlooked artists (yes, MTV used to play videos). Suddenly people were hearing for the first time Sonic Youth, Rollins Band, Iggy Pop, Alice in Chains, Nine Inch Nails . . . all kinds of stuff.

But, as would also happen, when one band “makes it” (Nirvana) they make, by default, a template. And what a horrible template it was. Suddenly everything from Seattle or that sounded like something from Seattle was being commoditized and the “grunge” sound was packaged in a nice radio-friendly manner with the likes of Candlebox, Collective Soul, and God only remembers what other garbage (this same movement would eventually birth the likes of Creed and Nickleback – thanks, Kurt).

So, Kurt died in 1994. And appropriately so (no, I’m not trying to sound like a dick here). He was unable, apparently, to reconcile all the madness that he was caught up in and the whirlwind around him. He was still the same loser kid WITHOUT any answers. But he was that same loser kid with mega-million-dollar contracts, international touring schedules, Rolling Stone interviews, etc. Mo money, mo problems, yo! A drug habit at this time was NOT going to help things. The problems got worse and the drugs did too. He also had what could arguably be considered the most volatile and unhelpful wife at the time.

We needed Kurt to die. We needed a Christ figure. We needed our John Lennon, our Elvis, our Jim Morrison, and we needed him to die . . . or it just wouldn’t work the way things are supposed to. He couldn’t become a God without first having his crucifixion.

And so it came to pass . . . here we are, 20 years later.

In all honesty, I’m not really a fan of the overall impact that was made by Kurt or the band. I didn’t like the way that things that were previously “underground” became Wal-Mart staples. I liked it before. I liked when being a loser and being angry and looking for release and reflection in music required more of an effort on our part. I used to steal money from my mother’s purse so I could drive 30 miles to my favorite record shop in Huntington Beach (Vinyl Solution – it sucks now, don’t bother) and SEARCH for stuff that meant something to me.

I don’t like when the youth gets their rebellious voice and meaning served to them on a silver platter, wrapped in a box, with a nifty bow on top (oh, hi there, Hot Topic!). All of this is 1000 times worse now with the explosion of the internet (kids can get anything and everything now with a couple mouse clicks).

I RESPECT Kurt and Nirvana for the meaning it all held at the time. And I think I understand WHY it had meaning to us all at that time. It had meaning because of it’s LACK of meaning and lack of pretense.

I respect it and I understand it.
Just don’t ask me to give a shit about any of it NOW.

Too long. Didn’t read.

Too short.
Read four times.

very well said gunnar

It was '91 when Nevermind came out. This was a time when people were pretty jaded, I think, with the music scene as a whole.

For me, personally, 1991 was the year that I escaped my very own “musical cocoon” and started to seek out the kind of music that I could hear in my head but had as yet to experience on a turntable. And with a little effort (and plenty of false starts) I started to find these amazing new sounds in the form of Neubauten, Throbbing Gristle, Butthole Surfers (especially Butthole Surfers), Soundgarden, Big Black and Ministry.

So the whole Nirvana phenomenon of '91 kinda went unnoticed by me. It really wasn’t part of my musical palette at the time. It wasn’t until…recently to be honest, that I started to ignore the hype as it were and concentrate on the music of Nirvana on it’s own. And happily I found plenty to appreciate - especially (as Atom pointed out) in In Utero which I find rather fascinating.

It’s certainly not the depressing “Mommy they’re picking on me” sob-fest that people make it out to be. In Utero is, in turn, apathetic, amusing, scathing, self loathing, snide, humorous, tender, frenetic, angry, hopeful, self referential, camp and honest. I think people are to a great extent being rather unfair when they call Nirvana “over-rated” or “slacker” or “mopey and boring”. With In Utero, Cobain not only exorcises his personal demons and lays them bare for all to see, but he belittles them, slaps them around a little and even shares a cigarette, a cup of coffee and a joke with them. It is genius. His lyrics were every bit as stream of consciousness and as cryptic as a King Buzzo and every bit as socially aware and sensitive as a Michael Stipe.

A very rare combination.

Just listen to Tourette’s or Very Ape or Rape Me and you’ll see what I mean.

Neither did Nirvana try to EXPLAIN things in a futile manner like so much “punk” (telling us we were supposed to be pissed because of our parents, our government, our churches . . . ad infinitum).

This.

I really really hope that the likes of Al Jourgenson and Jaz Coleman are reading this. As soon as a band tries to “convince me” of their cause…I’m gone. I’m outta there. I don’t want a sociology lesson. I am not going to join your cause. I am not going to vote for Peter just because you told me Paul is evil. Fuck your politics. Fuck your stance on the environment. Fuck your stance on Pepsi Cola and Nike and Wall Street. I am not your puppet. I am not your empty vessel. You will not fill my cup with your propaganda, bitch.

THAT’S why I admired Kurt Cobain. He never, ever tried to win me over. In his lyrics he showed me raw, naked, honest emotion. He gave me a beautiful noise and asked for nothing in return. He didn’t convince me that his music was “really, really, really important on a global sociological scale” (hi Bono and hi skinny Mr Gwyneth Paltrow whatever yr name is from Coldplay). His msuic didn’t attempt to cure world hunger, find a cure for AIDS or unite governments and bring down global conglomerates (hi Jaz Coleman).

His music just…was.

Maybe I’ll give it another try.
Other than the songs that got radio/MTV play I don’t have any familiarity with the music, to be honest, so if my assessment of them being dull was based on a non-representative sample . . . . well, okay, I’ll try again and see if I change my mind.

I found what I was looking for in the form of Neubauten, Throbbing Gristle, Butthole Surfers (especially Butthole Surfers), and Ministry.

Yep, I was rockin’ all those around that time too.
I was (as discussed in another thread) also very label-loyal at the time and would buy anything with a WAX TRAX or ALTERNATIVE TENTACLES stamp on it. NoMeansNo and Alice Donut, for me, still stand the test of time.

I just made massive changes to my post, so might be a good idea to re-read it.

I am at work now and wrote the original at the speed of light…and it came out kinda clunky.

every bit as socially aware and sensitive as a Michael Stipe.

Stipe is a whiny stupid man’s Bono. (and I detest Bono) Glad that fucker hung it up. Bitch.

[reply] every bit as socially aware and sensitive as a Michael Stipe.

Stipe is a whiny stupid man’s Bono. (and I detest Bono) Glad that fucker hung it up. Bitch.[/reply]

Did he quit?
I always hated that guy.
Thanks for reminding me.
I REALLY hate that guy.
I hate him more than Bono, actually.
He always looked so . . . . sick. There’s nothing more depressing than watching a band perform some sappy junk fronted by a guy that looks like he’s dying of AIDS.

Oh, wait. Actually I just thought of something more depressing . . . if that same band took a kickass drummer from one of the most legendary aggro-industrial mayhem acts of all time.

Yeah, I hate Stipe.

[reply]Too long. Didn’t read.

Too short.
Read four times.[/reply]

He’s just pissy because I dared to ask the question about why he started a stupid thread talking shit about the world cup. Luckily it’s evolved into what it’s evolved into now.

Stipe is a whiny stupid man’s Bono. (and I detest Bono) Glad that fucker hung it up. Bitch.

I feel the same way about Zack Dela Faggot.

Michael Stipe needs to listen to some Anal Cunt.

[reply][reply]Too long. Didn’t read.

Too short.
Read four times.[/reply]

He’s just pissy because I dared to ask the question about why he started a stupid thread talking shit about the world cup. Luckily it’s evolved into what it’s evolved into now.[/reply]

HAHA! Ironically, I’ve never even looked at the thread because I have ZERO interest in SOCCER (no, I will NOT call the sport “football”). If he’d titled it “Soccer is Gay” or something, I’d probably already have written 20 pages on the topic.

It’s also kind of ironic that of all the comments in this thread, I probably share HIS sentiments more than anyone else’s.

So much irony . . . it’s like a damn hipster convention up in hurr.

Some running commentary here on Gunnar’s Nirvana Post (Special Director’s Cut):

And so he became a figurehead of the times. Lost, confused, sad, angry . . . I don’t recall Nirvana ever telling us we needed to save the Tibetan Rain Forests to Cure AIDS for Gay Whales or any of that crap (Krist probably did later on, though). They just made a bunch of angry noise that a lot of angry kids felt sounded a lot like the internal angry noise they couldn’t themselves figure out how to get out.

I only remember one actual benefit / ‘cause’ that Nirvana was playing for when active - I think it was a kind of fundraiser for victims of systematic rape during the Balkan wars of the early 90s.

Kurt certainly had his opinions, but I find it interesting in that he was fairly selective and didn’t toe the party line on certain issues. He was way too obseqious when it came to women (see the lyric “never met a wise man…if so, it’s a woman”), and his belief in the total innocence of wimminkind led him into the track-marked arms of such “wise” souls as Courtney Love. However, he was an alternative culture dissenter when it came to issues like meat-eating or (obviously) gun ownership.

I RESPECT Kurt and Nirvana for the meaning it all held at the time. And I think I understand WHY it had meaning to us all at that time. It had meaning because of it’s LACK of meaning and lack of pretense.

That’s excellent analysis of the situation - again, the same thing I saw with kids in Japan picking up Nirvana records and playing their songs at their high school talent shows 15 years after the fact. In a utilitarian society where nothing’s morally good unless you can prove it to have a purpose, purposelessness becomes quite sexy and rebellious.

Michael Stipe needs to listen to some Anal Cunt.

This one especially:

[inline R-2683626-1309116323.jpeg]

“Loudest stereo on the BLOCK!!!”

Oh, wait. Actually I just thought of something more depressing . . . if that same band took a kickass drummer from one of the most legendary aggro-industrial mayhem acts of all time.

Yeah, I hate Stipe.

Yes, not even Rieflin’s endorsement of this band could get me behind them.

I think Bill’s a terrific musician with a great ear for nuance; even away from the drum kit - he was a perfect fit for Swans, and one of my favorite only-seen-on-video concert moments is the LORAH tour in which he has this simultaneously creepy and humorous Patrick Bateman demeanor at the keyboards. I’ve even followed him down decidedly un-‘industrial’ roads; his solo albums are quite good attempts at a less aggressive music.

But, again, I’m not one to support people just because they are ‘friends of friends.’ Stipe’s obnoxious bleat is as appealing to me as the sound of someone vomiting into my lap, and that’s the case even before his voice becomes the vehicle for self-righteousness and precious ‘literary’ lyrics.

kurt cobain ruled for what he did…suck it up…suckers…

Nirvana = Incredible marketing and Evangelical Emo-ism.

kurt cobain ruled for what he did…suck it up…suckers…

What he did was shoot himself in the face.